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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Conflicted

70 replies

DemisRoussoss · 01/03/2019 23:28

Hi!

I’m a bit confused/conflicted about something that’s just come up.

I have been GC for about a year, and am falling down various rabbit holes.

Anyway, I work with vulnerable people and as part of my work I try to introduce my clients to social connections/opportunities within the local community.

Anyway (again), a local community enterprise group consists of a women’s group, and I’ve supported my client to get to these groups.

The volunteer ‘leader’ of the women’s group is obviously (to me) a mtf man. I don’t know how far they are into their transition, but I can tell. I genuinely don’t know if this is because there’s no natal woman who wants to do it, or what.

It occurred to me that my wearing a ‘woman’ t shirt could hurt their feelings, and I don’t want to do that.

Anyway, I just wondered how to square my gc self with my compassionate, accepting self?

OP posts:

Original poster

DemisRoussoss · 01/03/2019 23:31

I am aware that I’ve really fucked up my words in the last two sentences. Pls forgive me.

OP posts:

truthisarevolutionaryact · 01/03/2019 23:38

I avoid wearing badges / t shirts or anything with a 'political' message when working. I am not saying there is anything wrong with either wearing political slogans or expressing your views but I've always been taught and do believe that the workplace shouldn't be the forum for these to be expressed?

BettyFloop · 01/03/2019 23:38

It's the dictionary definition.

If the group leader has a problem with the dictionary definition of a word on your t shirt they're free to tell you so. And as a GC woman you're free to explain your rationale for wearing it.

I'd say wear it with pride - and don't let your compassionate, accepting self deny biological reality; particularly for the vulnerable females who might be in this person's group.

Babdoc · 01/03/2019 23:47

I’m puzzled as to how and why a gender dysphoric man is leading a women’s group. Trans issues are completely different to women’s issues and in many cases directly opposed to them, eg in sport, prisons, changing rooms etc.
Women struggle to find any spaces that are not dominated by men in society. Surely to God, the one place they can expect to be free of men, to interact exclusively as women and freely discuss female issues and biology should be in a women’s group?

AssassinatedBeauty · 01/03/2019 23:49

Wear your T-shirt, and don't over think it. Unless you have a dress code that your think you might be breaking?

BettyFloop · 01/03/2019 23:56

I’m puzzled as to how and why a gender dysphoric man is leading a women’s group.

Because they seek affirmation and validation of their 'womanliness' Babdoc - whoever is "leading" this group for vulnerable women isn't doing it for the benefit of the vulnerable women in the group...

BettyFloop · 01/03/2019 23:59

Demis maybe this is not a group that the vulnerable women you're supporting should be signposted to while this "leader" is in place?

I wouldn't.

Original poster

DemisRoussoss · 02/03/2019 00:04

Thanks for the input so far.

I am absolutely on board with the discussion about women’s rights vs trans rights and I naturally align with WR.

My conflict is with the trans person who,as far as I know, isn’t part of the aggressive trans cult, and just wants to live their life as peacefully as possible. If this person doesn’t expect to access our spaces, but wants to live peacefully, I don’t know

OP posts:

Original poster

DemisRoussoss · 02/03/2019 00:07

I can’t imagine wearing my ‘woman’ t shirt/badge, without hurting this benign person’s feelings!

OP posts:

Original poster

DemisRoussoss · 02/03/2019 00:08

I really feel conflicted

OP posts:

Redcliff · 02/03/2019 00:13

I wouldn't wear it in a work situation - I have lots of personal views that I wouldn't share at work.

swingsandroudabouts · 02/03/2019 00:16

I do a similar job and when I'm doing it I'm 100% there to support the client and that means putting my thoughts and feelings out of the way while I do that.

I wouldn't wear the shirt.

Babdoc · 02/03/2019 00:28

Yes, I know they seek validation externally to compensate for the male biological reality internally, Bettyfloop - it’s obvious why a transgender chap would seek this role as a women’s leader.
What I meant was, I couldn’t understand why anyone who cares about vulnerable women would allow such a person to actually lead a women’s group? Did the group vote to accept such a leader? Was it imposed on them? Were they too polite to complain and say it was inappropriate? The group’s raison detre should definitely NOT be the validation of men’s “gender feels” - it presumably exists to discuss actual biological women’s issues. One of the hottest of which, paradoxically, is currently the takeover by TRAs of women’s spaces!

WhereYouLeftIt · 02/03/2019 03:30

No, I wouldn't wear such t-shirts/badges whilst at work. At work, I am a representative of my employer not me IYSWIM.

But like others, I have to ask - you describe your clients as vulnerable. You're introducing them to a women's group, where the group leader is male but presents (unconvincingly) as female.

There is a power relationship between you and your vulnerable client. Have you considered that your introducing them into this group gives that group and it's male leader ?credibility/status/authority? in the vulnerable person's eyes? That you may be overriding their boundaries, and they might not be able to express any disquiet they may have?

WeRiseUp · 02/03/2019 03:42

the trans person who,as far as I know, isn’t part of the aggressive trans cult

Yes they are. It is an act of aggression for a male to position themselves as (even put themselves forward for) leader of a women's group. This is how the tras work on the ground. Infiltrating and taking over anything 'for women' so that we have nothing left for ourselves. It's highly inappropriate and disrespectful.

I am not sure about dress codes at work/ slogans. Would it be appropriate to have a T shirt saying "I am a feminist' on it? If not, then I don't think the adult human female is appropriate either.

FWRLurker · 02/03/2019 04:35

I don’t see why if they are just getting along, that such a Shirt would “hurt their feelings”? As obviously they know they are not an Aduly Human Female, but in fact they are an Adult Human male with dysphoria, whats the issue here? The shirt does not apply to them.

Unless they are actively delusional and believe that they have literally changed sex in which case maybe it will act as a wake up call?

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 02/03/2019 08:03

Jeez, obviously don't wear it. It' a political slogan and you now that it might cause offence. People have the right to religious freedom too, but wearing a t-shirt saying 'God intended marriage to be between a man and a woman' to meet someone who is LGB might not be the best idea.

I presume you have about a thousand other non-sloganed t-shirts you could wear instead.

Babdoc · 02/03/2019 08:39

OP, I think you should stop referring vulnerable women to this male-led group. You are being complicit in gaslighting them.

Barracker · 02/03/2019 09:23

If this person doesn’t expect to access our spaces, but wants to live peacefully

Our spaces? Like.... women's groups?

(I'll use male pronouns here since we have no concrete evidence of this person's gender identity or pronoun preferences. At face value the OP considers this person to be a biologically male man running a women's group.)

Assuming you're right about him being male, he's already shown you who he is, so I'd believe him from the off. A man who feels entitled to not just join, but lead women in a women's group, is unlikely to respect their need for privacy in another setting, like communal changing rooms or showers. The women's spaces already have his flag planted in them, and he's appointed himself leader.

I wouldn't be sending any vulnerable clients his way. They'd be obliged to suppress their feelings in favour of his. Not conducive to healing.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 02/03/2019 09:27

I agree. I also think that a male person leading a group for vulnerable women is also a political statement and should not happen.

I wouldn't refer women to a group leader by this person.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 02/03/2019 09:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 02/03/2019 09:33

This.

OP - I wonder whether some reflective practice on your own part might be higher up the priority list than whether or not to wear the t-shirt?

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 02/03/2019 09:37

Well yes the whole scenario about taking a vulnerable person to this group in the first place sounds a bit strange. As in ‘I want to introduce a vulnerable client to a women’s group led by someone who is very obviously male but I don’t know whether I should wear my t-shirt that states that I don’t think men can be women’. Sounds a bit like screenshot-fodder.

youllhavehadyourtea · 02/03/2019 09:39

FFB12 -agree with you.

HappyPunky · 02/03/2019 09:42

I've worked with vulnerable people in the past and thought it was standard practice that you don't wear slogans and logos.

I wouldn't feel that I would be able to direct vulnerable women to a women's group led by a TW.

There are groups that are primarily female that don't exclude males but would be handy for validation purposes and I would feel more trusting of a TW who preferred to use these groups. I'm thinking book clubs and knitting clubs. You might get a couple of men but these sorts of groups are female led.

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