Help a brother out

[Glinner]

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

Like many, I eye-rolled at the Caitlyn Jenner farrago but thought that it wouldn't ever impinge on me.

Then I was browsing MN and came across Man Friday and started reading. And then read some more. And with everything I read, the voice in my head saying "what the fuck?" just got louder and louder.

I'm now trying to highlight the ridiculousness of the TWAW debate on facebook, but getting piled on by some of my gullible stupid woke friends. But so far I'm hanging on, helped by some supporters who can see the insanity.

Then just when I thought it couldn't get any more crazy, I read the link someone posted above to the cotton ceiling email chain.

Holy Fuck.

‘Orwellian mince’ is my new favourite phrase.

I'm old enough that second wave feminism is the kind I learned. And twenty-odd years ago I knew a lot of trans people, almost all born male and middle-age and almost all "part time" (and who called themselves transvestites and cross dressers then), and so I very quickly worked out the misogyny and stereotyping inherent in the whole thing, and yes the strong fetish element for a lot of people. But back then there was no "TWAW" political pressure, or not that I was aware of and not in the people I actually knew. So it seemed to me that obviously nobody, trans or not, actually denied reality and so although my feminist self was uncomfortable about a lot of it, I just assumed that everyone else trans or not was too and it was just bog-standard gender stereotyping which let's face it is far from confined to the trans world. (I also at that time did meet a few TW who were very well aware of the issues around this for feminists).

I'm also old enough to remember Germaine Greer taking on Newnham College, the women's college where she worked, when it wanted to appoint a trans fellow (Rachel Padman), and Greer was vilified and when Padman was appointed resigned from the college. Greer was, to me, entirely in the right and I was frustrated at what had happened, but I suppose I filed it under "hardly ever happens".

My spidey senses did twitch when the GRA was passed - not just the feminist twitching because that did seem to making it all political now but also truth-twitching (it seems to me fundamentally wrong for a lie to be legislated) and fact-twitching (rewriting birth certificates, you what?!) But, and obviously I knew this from the people I knew personally, again it would be "hardly ever happens".

The next ten years or so I kind of missed the signs of what was going on. I work for myself so never came across the "workplace diversity wokeness" stuff; I don't have children so Mermaids pushing 1950s stereotyping in schools didn't come up; I was a school governor for half a dozen years but a) it was an infant school and b) this was before the whole thing really took off so it never came up; I'm not a member of any political party so didn't see any discussions about TWAW/self ID there; I'm not a lesbian so didn't see the spaces shrinking and vanishing and nor did my lesbian friends who (it's our age!) are coupled-up and not clubbing, the women's spaces I do use (book group, friendship groups) haven't been targeted .... all the standard stuff about - excuses for - why we took our eyes off the ball all that time.

Then the takeover of Stonewall went public, and since then for me it has not been about "peak transing" so much, because I already was twenty years ago. It's been about realising (most of all as a result of reading and talking to the committed and brilliant women working on this, including here) that yes we do now have to have this fight.

PS! HQ I'm not misgendering Padman with "fellow"!! It's the title of the post appointed.

(Eek!)

Oh and the other thing that tipped me over the edge was that Mermaids Barbie-GI Joe chart. The first time I heard about it, I honestly thought it was a spoof. I just didn't believe people were that stupid. I thought schools would never allow it - I thought we could trust schools to protect our children.

And then finding out that crime statistics are recording crimes committed by transwomen as female crimes - this is the thing that scares me most of all because it means future generations won't even be able to see male violence, let alone talk about it.

The way this ideology has taken root has shaken my belief in government to its foundations. I don't think I'll ever be able to vote again - for any party.

It's like human beings (men and women) have either lost the capacity to think - or they are thinking but they don't care because it's only women and children.

I forgot to mention further giant peaks..

at how the detranisitioned community are left out entirely from this narrative. This when we already know that many, if not most trans people will revert back to living in their birth sex.

Also, discovering how James’ Caspian’s research ethics application to research detranisitioned people’s experiences (I think at Bath Spa University) was apparently turned down at least partly because the ethics committee feared it would get a social media pitchforking if it approved it. Seriously what kind of political climate is this that would suppress key research into people’s needs like that?

Plus the fact that the detranisitioned people themselves are ignored by the big trans advocacy charities, #nodebate and if you ask any questions about their welfare you are a TERF transphobia or whatever and denying all trans people the right to exist.

Where is their passionate advocacy for detranisitioned people’s rights and services given these people will have made complex lifelong changes to their bodies that they may be dealing with forever, including the loss of primary sex organs and loss any sexual function at all and total loss of their fertility and loss or gain of cosmetic approximations to the secondary sexual characteristics of the opposite sex. Not to mention the psychological trauma they may have.

Where is the advocacy for them? Where are all the well funded peer-support services that could be putting them in touch with other people who get it? Where are the loud calls for specialised professional services (informed by a strong base of research evidence like any normal advocacy group would be actively fundraising for and vocally supporting and raising the profile of)?

This complete dereliction of care by the organisations purporting to care so passionately about trans people really showed me that in fact we’re seeing a hardline political men’s rights movement and a theoretical dogma with all the features of a cult.

People who medically and surgically transition are strategically necessary to them. they need the photogenic kids and young people to transition in big numbers to be poster children for super-fast affirmation at ever younger ages, which is completely incompatible with informed consent and safeguarding and leaving the NHS, schools and whole public sector vulnerable to being sued i can imagine for affirming and supporting it.

Also possibly this agenda is being pushed by some for some very concerning reasons to do with hoping to boost the numbers of adult-age people in the community who have their bodies and minds maintained by drugs in a pre-pubertal physical and mental state.

And also the fact that when the NHS GICs won’t treat kids under 18 in their best interests (or while there is a wait for their services) some of their parents take the kids private for treatment. Apparently it’s very easy to get blockers and hormones via this route- or even to order them yourself directly online.

This is permanent life-limiting stuff and should never be available on demand. So you have to ask where are the UK acts of parliament or European level directives and regulatory crack downs on this illicit side of things? Nowhere, because they are either idealogically bought in and complicit or are too terrified of criticism to speak up.

It feels like things are maybe slowly starting to unravel but this will take years and there will be a huge political backlash and load of arse covering happening along the way and many people will be left highly vulnerable as collateral damage.

I’m really heartened to see so many names I don’t recognise on here. It shows how many lurk.

Tell you what else - having professional peers who are evidence based and trained in critical thinking say "TWAW" makes me want to laugh at them.

No, sex is not a spectrum. You know fine well it is not, you absolute unit.

I woke up to this far too late, I consider myself aware of important issues, but like others I’ve had a rude awakening in discovering that the Guardian and the BBC (although the BBC has been a teeny bit better recently) have either not reported on this, or have slavishly adopted the TWAW perspective.

I used to ignore the FWR boards as I’d heard it was just a bunch of transphobic stuff - nothing I’d be interested in, as I’m no “phobe”. Ha! How wrong I realised I was when I popped over here - I can’t even remember why, but since then my eyes have been opened.

It really is falling down a rabbit hole and realising that when people say TWAW they mean it literally - I think I assumed it was just about being kind, using pronouns etc. I think that’s what most people assume - see the reaction to men in women’s sports for whether the public actually believe humans can change sex.

The realisation that some people believe that women as a sex class should no longer be able to define ourselves, organise ourselves, meet together, fight our sex based oppression etc is horrendous. Because “woman” is apparently now a feeling in a man’s head, and our oppression is not based on our sex at all!

Hearing a presenter on Today ask Angeles Sofocleus if saying “women don’t have penises” might be hate speech astounded me.

Understanding how deeply some men hate women has been a revelation.

Seeing how many men are happy to have women budge up and give up their spaces, their sports, their rights to accommodate men - men should have no say in what a woman is, how we can best protect ourselves, who our sports should include.

Hearing a woman say that if men compete in women’s sports, women might be inspired to “try harder”, like women’s only disadvantage in sports is their inherent laziness?!

Seeing young people encouraged to mutilate their bodies, take untested treatments, all in the name of reinforcing stereotypes that damage everyone - how is this progress?

Realising that no major political party understands that human beings can’t change sex.

Hearing Greater Manchester Police say that “terf” is simply an acronym (all the time presumably accepting that the dictionary definition of a woman is hate speech).

We need more men to speak up - more politicians, more celebrities, more sportsmen. I hate the fact that we need men to speak up, but the reality is that we do.

I don’t know how you tolerate the abuse Glinner, but thank you for speaking up for us.

We need more men to speak up - more politicians, more celebrities, more sportsmen. I hate the fact that we need men to speak up, but the reality is that we do.

This. This isn’t going to be shot down until it negatively affects men.

I don't post but I read. I read and read and read these threads and these articulate women who so well explain my deep discomfort and revulsion at what is being done to women. I am petrified that without change my daughter will be forced to grow up in a world where being a woman isn't even a thing.

I ad my thanks to you @Glinner for being a male voice supporting our cause. I wish we didn't need you but I'm very pleased we have you.

People who medically and surgically transition are strategically necessary to them. they need the photogenic kids and young people to transition in big numbers to be poster children for super-fast affirmation at ever younger ages, which is completely incompatible with informed consent and safeguarding and leaving the NHS, schools and whole public sector vulnerable to being sued i can imagine for affirming and supporting it.

The NHS make it look like such a happy, jolly world! www.nhs.uk/livewell/transhealth/documents/livingmylife.pdf?fbclid=IwAR31ttBEJiw1MfhBJLbthWaXBYEtvxr8NEJXZ0yj7vk4Vb2EGznh-wL6J2s

I wrote further up the thread about what I thought was my peak trans moment - I had found out about the GRA and other things, and it was the shock of finding out how deeply my daughters had taken on board the trans narrative, having been away at university during the time this was becoming mainstream.

Peak trans is a mountain range. There are so many peaks, sometimes you lose sight of the one you started on.

The one I started on was the BBC. I had watched their sitcom about a transwoman who was beginning a relationship and it was fun and terribly open minded and all that. Nothing to see here. There were constant trans-positive experiences constantly appearing on the website that I idly flicked through although these confusingly seemed to talk about intersex people as if they were transgender and there were little slots on R4Today about transgender people - it was all starting to get a bit boring TBH.

Then one day, there was a recorded conversation, rather than an interview, with a mother who was bringing up her son as a girl. She explained all her reasons and they let he have free reign. Then the piece ended and no one discussed the implications or whys or wherefores and the programme just moved on...……………… I thought WTF!!!!!!!!!

Now my mother worked a lot with young and nursery age children and later with child protection, when child sexual abuse was big on the agenda in the early 1980s so I learned a lot there by osmosis that I wish I had never known. I was always intending to have a career in science so did a lot of biology up to first year uni. So all this was not ringing true with me and the woman transing her 4 year old was blowing sirens, never mind alarm bells. And nothing was being said .

Later there was a court case in the family court system where a child was returned to its father, having been brought up as a girl by their mother, gradually taken out of the school, and safeguarding system, and the report was published in an anonymised version. It was clear from the report that the mother had been working on the advice of a support organisation (Mermaids the givers of sweeties I discovered).

Shortly afterwards, there was a really good BBC2 programme about someone who worked with trans people who had lost his job due to pressure from groups lobbying to change the law in Canada. This programme restored my faith in the BBC a little, but there was a massive outcry and since then, I have discovered, through reading on this site, how much the media is controlled by PR and organisations like Trans Media Watch and legal groups like TELI and how much the people of these groups overlap.

There are many many peaks and hidden valleys in this and one of the hidden valleys is the changes to the GRA. So much effort has been made to get these changes made into law. I expect the vast majority of people have no idea how far the original GRA teamed with the 2010 EA go already. Seeing the changes Stonewall want to make (removing exemptions to Sex as a protected characteristic and changing to Gender Identity) written down in government documents is eye-opening.

I had no idea how these pieces of legislation interact until recently and it is fascinating. There are other bits of legislation and much strange interpretation of guidelines going on.

I’m not going to tell my story as it’s far too outing (nothing in the big scheme just a little Joanne with very specific incidents) but in terms of my journey it is no different to the 100’s of posts here. Kind, but when the scales fell from my eyes I find myself in constant anger, horror and fear. I praise the ‘names’ who are speaking and I will never ever forgive or forget those who betrayed me and mine.

I’m really heartened to see so many names I don’t recognise on here. It shows how many lurk.

They've been sent over from Twitter (and also Reddit), not necessarily MN lurkers at all.

@BettyDuMonde
‘Orwellian mince’ is my new favourite phrase.
Thanks

Later there was a court case in the family court system where a child was returned to its father, having been brought up as a girl by their mother, gradually taken out of the school, and safeguarding system, and the report was published in an anonymised version. It was clear from the report that the mother had been working on the advice of a support organisation (Mermaids the givers of sweeties I discovered).

Feminist Current article details the case.

'When lobby groups like Mermaids dictate policy and discourse around gender identity, kids lose'
OCTOBER 26, 2016 by JULIAN VIGO

(extract)
"Justice Hayden notes that M’s description of her son’s issues sounded coached, explaining that “She offered an impressive, intense and highly articulate evaluation of the problems faced by children with gender dysphoria but she conveyed no sense of J’s personality, temperament or enthusiasms, notwithstanding frequently being encouraged to do so.” He added that M struck him “as a professional witness giving evidence about somebody else’s child.”

Rather than support a child, the agencies and organizations involved appear to have simply supported a mother’s claims, without investigating further. In fact, Justice Hayden ruled that “There was no independent or supportive evidence that J identified as a girl at all, indeed there was a body of material that suggested the contrary.” Notably, he added that he believes Social Services “failed properly to investigate M’s assertions, in part I suspect, because they did not wish to appear to be challenging an emerging orthodoxy in such a high profile issue.”

This is the sort of solipsism from which Mermaids operates. The organization cherry-picks “specialists” who corroborate their view of gender, denigrates judgments that are backed up by myriad others whose observations support the judge’s views, thereby ignoring the actual specialists involved in this case." (continues)

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/10/26/lobby-groups-like-mermaids-dictate-policy-discourse-around-gender-identity-kids-lose/

I think I was first peak transed. 26 years ago, at 17 when my then boyfriend decided he was a woman and the first thing he did was shave his legs and wear skirts and didn't understand why as a feminist I found it insulting and reductive that this is what existed in his head as the blue print for what women are.

Then there would be my M.A in gender studies studying alongside a MTF trans person, hearing the vitriol and hate towards women who did not accept him as a woman unconditionally and how he and his friends were planning to force the Women's Centre to allow them in, with no comprehension that that would exclude a whole host of women who for various reasons I.e Patriarchy, would then not be able to access the centre for much needed support.

And...seeing the T totally take over in LGBT, which many of us could see coming and argued against it, conflating and confusing sexuality, gender, and sex was always going to be a car crash.

More recently self Id, the thought police, trying to make saying trans women are not women hate speech, the visible trans presentation of 'Woman' which is based totally in male fantasy.

I fear for our young people, they are made to feel shame and guilt for having a preference for which genitals they wish to engage with, I would so hate to be coming out now, on the surface it looks so much easier but then: the cotton ceiling WTF?!!!

Sport: need I say more? I am just so fucking angry about it all, everything we have fought for, it is being eroded, when Simone de Beauvoir said 'One is not born a woman, but becomes one' I am fairly sure she did not mean this shit show .

Decided to make it my username as just re-joined (had closed previous account because of security stooshie)so this is my "first" post (see name doesn't change on old posts):
Hey @Glinner Regularly read your Twitter (not on it)-great to see the balance this thread is providing in evidencing that you are not the bigot, those who say you are-are looking in their own mirrors.
I first became uncomfortable when the T was added to the LGB I'd hung around with for years but I could not see the connection with the people I knew (still can't). I voiced this at work (years ago) when we discussed adding the T as I knew it would threaten women only spaces. I was right.
First personal experience of this was an intimidating, big man in fishnet tights & mini skirt who came to our women's group. Gave a woman's name so we all felt couldn't say anything or would have been seen as transphobic. It is not transphobic to not want a male bodied person in a woman only space! Sex segregated spaces are to protect women from men but also so women can share their unique experiences (as biological women) with each other. He has returned (last I heard) to wearing men's clothes & man's name-he'd told us (no-one asked) that he had not had any treatment. Over the weeks he behaved in ways which screamed predatory male (kept bringing up stories about what he'd need to do post surgery to keep things open; flirting with younger women). Some of them stopped coming. He dominated discussions & I was fuckin annoyed he changed the dynamics of the group. Eventually he stopped coming when the group stopped colluding with his behaviour being acceptable.
I had been to hear Germaine Greer (years ago too) &, although didn't agree with everything she said, was shocked she was no platformed for saying what I/many women thought but I put objections down to privileged students who lacked life experience or knowledge of EA2010 Sex as a protected characteristic.
I then read comments by Magdalene Berns & that SHE was no platformed for genius stuff so I thought WTF is going on in Universities. This is not what we campaigned about when I was there.
The GRA consultation completed my enlightenment.The idea that any man could say he was a woman (no-one seems to be bothered by FtM as don't encroach on rights/undermine safe spaces/affect level playing field in sport) was presented as just a small/Trans admin thing is scary.
Since then I've been on a fast-track-getting to know the Usual Suspects-sometimes I wish I hadn't heard of any of them. I think I was happier. I suspect that is why many pretend they don't know why it is an issue or why it is easier to think we are the problem. We are not.
I don't know how it has come to this-with Rape Crisis Centres & other women's organisations being against women (eh??) who are trying to apply legislation in a fair way to preserve "Women only" as having a real meaning confused. Plus I read Intersex people who are upset that THEIR "I" is being added, by some to defend their virtue signalling re: inclusivity. Is it inclusive if women (the events/space are for) are being silenced by all of this.
Thanks for all you do Graham but sometimes I feel you should just head for the hills! As should I! grin But then I think of all the good women (& men) I know who agree with me/us & all the new folk I've met/read (including some inspiring Transwomen who don't chant mantras because threatened by women) and I know I wouldn't want to not be a part of those challenging this Orwellian mince.
(I didn't include all the other things women have posted here which also reinforced I'm on the right path-this is a brilliant thread for anyone who is ambivalent).

P.s I am a lurker, and am very thankful for this space to discuss these issues. It is becoming harder and harder IRL.

That's how I feel cunty. It's the BBC's betrayal that pains me the most. I will never forgive them. And I was their most ardent supporter - grew up on Blue Peter, weaned on Top of the Pops, spent my adult life accompanied by R4 wherever I went. Now, I can't listen at all. Why would any thinking adult willingly consume Newspeak when they know it's a mass of lies?

All of these accounts are BIG news. Yet none of it is being reported in the media.

It's being driven by powerful men with a lot of influence at the top of many institutions. People don't believe the ideology but are too scared to go against it. It's sinister.

All it needs is someone to be brave enough to get it out there in mainstream so that we can all talk about it. Martina did this. Now is the time for all the men to come and back her up.

Women can't do it on their own because men hold the power. As long as this ideology does not affect men, there is no reason for them to take a risk on behalf of women.

It's just plain oppression. It's right out there for everyone to see but no-one will do anything about it.

Please let sport be the trigger. Come on male sporting heroes, where are you?

For me it was the day a friend told me her autistic daughter was now her son. I was open minded and accepting - of course, I’d been a GNC LGBT advocate for years myself - but when I asked her if there was any chance her child might be a butch lesbian rather than a transboy my dear, lefty friend reacted which such disgust and horror to the idea that the scales fell from my eyes and I realised she was actually homophobic. (I already knew that her husband was disappointed to only have daughters, and had always been vocal about wanting a son.)

It was a shock to realise how much psychologically easier it was for even some “nice lefty” people to have a trans child rather than an unfeminine lesbian child, especially if it also meant they would get a much longed-for boy at last.

Since then, the peaks have been endless and have been described on here many times. The overriding theme that drives all of them is how illogical it all is and how completely without anything that looks like an evidence base. No wonder the advocates of this ideology want to shut down discussion so very much. It doesn’t stand up to scrutiny at all.

It was a shock to realise how much psychologically easier it was for even some “nice lefty” people to have a trans child rather than an unfeminine lesbian child, especially if it also meant they would get a much longed-for boy at last.

It has been very noticeable since around the middle of the 90s that you have to be 'beautiful and sexy' to be a young girl these days - you can't even be a scruffy academic - there used to be pictures in the papers of how beautiful clever girls were these days so it is not as if you can hide away with your books to escape the socialisation any more.