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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Help a brother out

701 replies

Glinner · 26/02/2019 15:06

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

OP posts:
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GassyAss · 27/02/2019 21:27

This reply has been deleted

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RelaxTheCacks · 27/02/2019 21:45

It started with this, The Cotton Ceiling factcheckme.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-cotton-ceiling-really/ my head nearly exploded, I got a headache and concluded ah lads ye are just making shit up!

FlyingOink · 27/02/2019 21:59

It was numbers for me, initially. I've known transsexuals, one relatively well. I know how incredibly rare it is.
The numbers of what I now know are AGP men just didn't make sense.
Then I realised I'd be transed if I was 14 now. I'd be frogmarching my parents to the Tavistock and I wouldn't change my mind. I'm certain of it. Like many butch lesbians I was very masculine even as a very young child. It made me very unhappy when I thought of it. (When I was very small luckily I didn't think about it much, I was allowed to just be a child without gendered pink stuff). Realising I was a lesbian as a teenager was awful. How uncool. Even the word sounded horrible. I called myself gay to begin with and slowly got used to myself by being around others like me. Now I just wish I could help someone in my shoes. I saw a girl who looked like I did when I was young recently, she had so many self harm scars on her arms that they had no unscarred tissue and she was clearly binding. Smart short back and sides, and that look of recognition. I just wanted to hug her and tell her not to hurt herself any more. Terrible.
But what got me here and got me thinking about it all the time was the Pride protest. Bloody heroic. The bullshit by the organisers, the bullshit by Pink News, and the perfectly reasonable assertion that a lesbian is a female homosexual portrayed as hate speech made me mad.
Now even that isn't what fuels my fire the most - right now it's the barbaric experiments done on children that enrages me. My parents didn't know what to make of me but they did their best - and I'm a happy adult despite the difficulties of growing up and coming out etc. Medicalising difference, homophobic parents transing gay children, emotional blackmail by TRAs, dishonesty about drugs, surgeries, outcomes, reality - the knowledge that these children may never experience the joy of becoming an adult (mentally) and having an enjoyable sex life as an adult kills me.
The impact on women's rights, on sport, on law, etc is all worth fighting for but it's the children who never get a chance that keep me going.

failingatlife · 27/02/2019 22:24

Threads on AIBU about Tara with the 8' surprise fighting to get into a women's prison led me here and I've never left. Day after day I am utterly horrified and a gwred about the shit happening to women and children in the name of this ideology.

pastabest · 27/02/2019 22:32

Hang on, I'm just reading one of the Guardian links above.

Is Lauren Jeska still in a women's prison?!

ChattyLion · 27/02/2019 22:40

For me it was my big, broad colleague (who identifies as female) looming out from behind me from the toilet cubicle next to mine. Making me jump out of my skin because instinctively, having men in women’s toilets feels threatening to me.
And then feeling like I should be the one doing the apologising in case their feelings were hurt.

This in our workplace’s unadapted, very much not floor-to-ceiling women’s toilets. Which also have a shower section, funny enough completely unused now. so no more cycling in to work for us women..

It is the degrading powerlessness of being forced to be a validating bit-player in someone else’s fantasy. completely inappropriate at work, another example of our male dominated workplace giving no fucks about women employees.

I understand from MN posters that it’s illegal to let men use the women’s toilets (that is, while still calling them ‘women’s toilets’ on the sign on the door.) But given the toxic atmosphere around all this I feel there is nothing I can do or say about that if I want to keep my job and avoid being hounded as a transphobe.

Since then I have found out more about the onslaught against evidence based medicine, medical ethics and the presumption of a child’s right to an open future, against safeguarding, against lesbians and gay men’s right to be same-sex-attracted, against everybody’s freedom of speech, against women’s freedom to assemble in single sex spaces, against women’s educational, workplace and sports opportunities and awards...

I was horrified when a grandmother was punched at Speakers Corner, and when Karen white sexually abused women in prison,

..and at how quickly the public sector, voluntary sector and basically all of the political parties are embracing self ID and apparently ignoring sex as a legally protected chareristic in their policies.

I am shocked at the fact that a GRC gives such profound legal rights to be recognised as the opposite sex but yet nobody can ever ask to see a GRC- so effectively we already have legal gender self ID. (Why are we even still retaining the GR Act after all the inequalities around marriage and pension rights have been removed?)

honestly the peaking just goes on

Charley50 · 27/02/2019 22:46

This thread is peak-transing me all over again, reading so many stories about women's groups / lesbian groups / creative writing groups, hostels etc. being hijacked and then disbanded because of all the drama caused. It's like being colonised.

The stories I'm reading of Lesbian (to-be) girls and women's rights and spaces and autonomy being completely trampled on and abused.

The way that HALF of the population, has been completely disregarded by our politicians (bar one!), in such an underhand way. I wrote to my Labour MP with my concerns over the GRA. She wrote back saying that she cared lots about transgender rights and not to worry dear.

And all of this covered up by the BBC, Channel 4, The Guardian. They don't give a shit about HALF of the country. We work, pay taxes, and license fees, we bring up the young, and they throw us under a bus.

And what's being done to children, with no research, no checks, no safeguarding, it's criminal that this has gone on so far.

OldCrone · 27/02/2019 22:48

Is Lauren Jeska still in a women's prison?!

Apparently so. And was also recorded as a female offender for statistical purposes.

Jeska is to serve the 18 year sentence in HMP Foston Hall, a women’s closed category prison. Sentencing details from the Crown Court indicate that this violent crime will be recorded in female crime statistics rather than male, as Jeska is listed as female.

transcrimeuk.com/2017/10/31/lauren-jeska/

Datun · 27/02/2019 23:02

This thread is peak-transing me all over again,

Me too.

Jazz Jennings. The face of a girl, the body of a woman, and the genitalia of a prepubescent boy.

Infertile, no sex life, medicated for life and now has an aperture that Jazz's own mother has to help dilate.

All televised in the name of entertainment.

All televised in the name of entertainment and being touted as progressive.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 27/02/2019 23:08

HANG ON. I see Glinner is asking for these to be screen shifted to twitter. That’s not right. It draws attention to our Mumsnet names in a very public forum. I am happy writing here but the last thing I want is for something with my MN game out to thousands of your followers on Twitter. I could too easily be doxxed and whilst I think in this quiet forum I am quite safe, I deliberately do not write on Twitter.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 27/02/2019 23:08

*screenshotted

Fuck you auto correct

FermatsTheorem · 27/02/2019 23:11

@Glinner - please do not screenshot these comments to twitter. Women on here do not need the wrath of a huge contingent of narcissistic, misogynistic men drawn down on them.

Notahandmaid · 27/02/2019 23:12

Hooray - at last I can get a chance to thank @Glinner for his fantastic work. I can’t tweet you because I have a locked account but have wanted to thank you for so long.

For me, alarm bells started ringing when I saw some TRAs complaining about FGM being ‘trans exclusionary’. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. Can female babies in India identify as male babies to stop them being victims of female infanticide?

My sympathy was on the wane. Then I noticed the ‘punch a terf’ narrative. This focus on silencing women seemed like pure misogyny to me.

Then a good friend of mine decided he was a trans woman and I am very dubious about his reasons for doing so. It has upset me greatly.

I am very grateful to you, @Glinner for speaking out. Thank you. Plus I love Father Ted. It’s my go to programme whenever I need cheering up!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/02/2019 23:15

Just to point out that TRAs are probably already screenshotting this thread. This isn't some closed forum. Anything you post here is for anyone to see. It makes little difference whether Glinner reposts them to twitter or the TRA monitors do.

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 27/02/2019 23:18

Charley50

wrote to my Labour MP with my concerns over the GRA. She wrote back saying that she cared lots about transgender rights and not to worry dear.

This is what I got from my got from my Tory Male MP. Didn't address any of my points. It was very much a dismissal

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 27/02/2019 23:19

I don't know why my phone capitalises the 'M' is Male so sorry about that
(But very apt)

DoctoressPlague · 27/02/2019 23:29

This thread is peak-transing me all over again, reading so many stories about women's groups / lesbian groups / creative writing groups, hostels etc. being hijacked and then disbanded because of all the drama caused. It's like being colonised.

I agree, I'm sad and angry reading this thread.
ChattyLion A friend of mine has a similar situation at work and she's thinking of leaving because of it.
It annoys me when some women say "oh I don't mind sharing toilets". There are many who do mind, and workplaces are a big part of people's lives.

RilkeanHeart · 27/02/2019 23:30

This is an amazing thread - thank you all. To respond to the original question, I knew little about this debate until coming across women raising the issue of gender recognition at Labour conference a couple of years ago. Knowing what I do now, I wish I’d stood with them. It wasn’t until a very local issue (swimming in a women-only space) led me to this corner of the internet, that I learned more.
I work in an environment where challenging the prevailing narrative is very difficult. One of two of us have come out quietly to each other as GC, but I certainly couldn’t speak out freely either at work or on twitter. Nonetheless all of our our voices are important - discussion with my teenage daughter will, I hope, at least open the way to her seeing that standing up for women doesn’t equate to being a bigot. And that proper debate is always, always better than no debate.

Jollygrandma · 27/02/2019 23:47

This is a wonderful thread. Thank you Graham Linehan for all you do for your wife and daughter and all you sisters. I was assaulted 17 years ago in a public toilet at a movie theatre. The assaulter? He was a six-foot-something man in makeup, false eyelashes, high heels, and a pantsuit. Why am I still alive to tell the tale? Two women came into the public toilet, and HE ran out.

Still, I was sympathetic and compassionate, though somewhat queasy about these men asking to be called women and mothers and sisters. That is until the daughter of a friend of mine screamed at me when I suggested that the genitals of a woman or a man might have a little something to do with their gender.

Then came Speakers Corner and then-60-yr-old Maria Maclachlan's beating by three young men in skirts.

After that, I set it upon myself to learn as much as I could. The cruelty toward children, big pharma's profit-driven scheme that destroys young people's lives, the attacks on Lesbians, the death a rape threats. Now, they've REALLY got my attention.

BickerinBrattle · 28/02/2019 00:11

Posting from America, Glinner

I have long led creativity and sexuality workshops for mixed--sex and women-only groups. I have observed over and over again how a group of women change when one man enters the space. I am well aware of the sudden self-checking, self-censorship and subtle masking that women engage in as soon as what was female space becomes mixed space. I'm also well aware of the concept of the "male gaze" first written about in the context of film direction.

I became concerned and explored more about what transactivists were pushing when I realized that if they achieve their goals, there will be no space none where women can gather in public free from male presence and male gaze. Not a toilet, changing room, refuge, hostel, sleeping berth, hospital room, dormitory room, prison cell, sports team, classroom, or workshop of any kind, and certainly not any political organising -- not without male presence. Under His Eye indeed. If male presence in female space had been mandated in years past, neither the First nor the Second Wave of feminism would have ever gotten off the ground.

In the US, with trades unions so weak, most employee leverage against employers comes via class action lawsuits. But how can there be a class of women suing, for instance, Wal-Mart, if "woman" itself has no definition? How can there be a coherent class of women suing Wal-Mart for sex discrimination in refusing to promote women to managers when other "women" (of the male variety) are promoted to managers? In fact, the proposed Equality Act in America would redefine sex to include gender identity, making the word "sex" and therefore sex-based worker protections meaningless. This even though gender presentation is already protected in American workplaces under the Supreme Court's Hopkins v. Price-Waterhouse decision, which ruled against PW for refusing to promote a woman PW felt didn't dress in sufficiently feminine fashion. That ruling has been extended by lower courts and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to include men and women who present in non-stereotypical ways.

As much as I saw transactivism as a women's rights issue, I began to also see it as an employment rights issue. I now think that some of the major billionaire money supporting transactivism in the US, particularly from the tech sector, known for its libertarian politics and discriminatory hiring practices, comes from recognition that a government can eliminate protected classes and pesky class action suits by administratively redefining class membership.

It has long been my observation that the right thinks and works strategically while the left seldom does. Seeing the trans agenda as a stealth means of eliminating rights for protected classes of workers, I suspected that once transgender had gained ground, transracial would be next, as racial discrimination is another route to large class action suits against employers. And yes, that has started up in the US, though its first attempt in Delaware was quashed by protest from the NAACP. I do not think it will be the last.

Fallingirl · 28/02/2019 00:25

Wow, Bickerin, that is an extremely important point.

russianterfbot · 28/02/2019 00:41

That's a really interesting point about employment and filling quotas, Bickerin. I'm currently applying for jobs and (very annoyingly) constantly being asked if my 'gender identity' matches my sex in the Equal Opps monitoring - what does that even mean? Do I like baking cakes and high heels? I've fought all my life for the right to be myself as a gender non-conforming woman who's dealt with a great deal of sexism in my work and social life due to looking feminine naturally and now I'm expected to label myself 'cis' and declare myself a gender conformist just because I don't have a penis - you fucking what??? How is this progressive?! I always choose 'prefer not to say' because there's no option that says 'gender is a social construct'.

Stooshie · 28/02/2019 00:53

Hey @Glinner Regularly read your Twitter (not on it)-great to see the balance this thread is providing in evidencing that you are not the bigot, those who say you are-are looking in their own mirrors.
I first became uncomfortable when the T was added to the LGB I'd hung around with for years but I could not see the connection with the people I knew (still can't). I voiced this at work (years ago) when we discussed adding the T as I knew it would threaten women only spaces. I was right.
First personal experience of this was an intimidating, big man in fishnet tights & mini skirt who came to our women's group. Gave a woman's name so we all felt couldn't say anything or would have been seen as transphobic. It is not transphobic to not want a male bodied person in a woman only space! Sex segregated spaces are to protect women from men but also so women can share their unique experiences (as biological women) with each other. He has returned (last I heard) to wearing men's clothes & man's name-he'd told us (no-one asked) that he had not had any treatment. Over the weeks he behaved in ways which screamed predatory male (kept bringing up stories about what he'd need to do post surgery to keep things open; flirting with younger women). Some of them stopped coming. He dominated discussions & I was fuckin annoyed he changed the dynamics of the group. Eventually he stopped coming when the group stopped colluding with his behaviour being acceptable.
I had been to hear Germaine Greer (years ago too) &, although didn't agree with everything she said, was shocked she was no platformed for saying what I/many women thought but I put objections down to privileged students who lacked life experience or knowledge of EA2010 Sex as a protected characteristic.
I then read comments by Magdalene Berns & that SHE was no platformed for genius stuff so I thought WTF is going on in Universities. This is not what we campaigned about when I was there.
The GRA consultation completed my enlightenment.The idea that any man could say he was a woman (no-one seems to be bothered by FtM as don't encroach on rights/undermine safe spaces/affect level playing field in sport) was presented as just a small/Trans admin thing is scary.
Since then I've been on a fast-track-getting to know the Usual Suspects-sometimes I wish I hadn't heard of any of them. I think I was happier. I suspect that is why many pretend they don't know why it is an issue or why it is easier to think we are the problem. We are not.
I don't know how it has come to this-with Rape Crisis Centres & other women's organisations being against women (eh??) who are trying to apply legislation in a fair way to preserve "Women only" as having a real meaning Confused. Plus I read Intersex people who are upset that THEIR "I" is being added, by some to defend their virtue signalling re: inclusivity. Is it inclusive if women (the events/space are for) are being silenced by all of this.
Thanks for all you do Graham but sometimes I feel you should just head for the hills! As should I! Grin But then I think of all the good women (& men) I know who agree with me/us & all the new folk I've met/read (including some inspiring Transwomen who don't chant mantras because threatened by women) and I know I wouldn't want to not be a part of those challenging this Orwellian mince.

MissElleAny · 28/02/2019 01:54

WomanInBoots Very interesting post. Especially like the bit about knowing your own mind and not wanting kids: I once saw a doctor (a locum) about my eczema, and before we even got to that part he greeted me with, "Ah, Ms [Insert Surname]! Too busy for babies?", because I was (then) 38 and hadn't had kids. Stupidly, I'd thought it was optional. Hmm Even more stupidly, I didn't challenge him (didn't want to make a fuss; didn't want to be forced to going to another practice for being a problem patient - I'm naturally quiet and passive). I still desperately wish I was the kind of person who didn't take prisoners and had taken his balls with me when I'd left the surgery. It would have been nothing less than he deserved.

crumpet · 28/02/2019 02:20

For me it was hearing about Germaine Greer being no platformed, closely followed by a conversation with my then very young teen about discussions at school and the initially unquestioning viewpoint held that there were no issues with trans people in sports

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