Help a brother out

[Glinner]

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

I am a survivor of sex trafficking and child sexual abuse who for decades has enjoyed relaxing at the Hampstead Women's Pond.

I do not hate men, some of my closest friends are men, I just need to sometimes relax in the sun or swim in a place where my body is not subjected to the gaze of men.

Upon identifying that a person in possession of a penis had made themselves comfortable in a women only space, I spoke to one of the lifeguards.

With the glassy eyed robotic monotone of a brainwashed droid the lifeguard informed me that all the lifeguards had undertaken transgender awareness training and that sometimes women were "transitioning" and identified as female even though they had a penis.

I attempted to engage in a rational debate about this with the lifeguard but it was pointless, as she evidentially believed that she was educating me about a subject that she knew much more about than I did.

I was subsequently in a situation in which I met many young women all of them had serious, ongoing mental health problems, who were in the process of "transitioning" to be men.

I found it shocking as my understanding is that people with serious, ongoing mental health problems are advised not to make significant life changes (e.g. change job, get a mortgage, sell house etc.) until they are in a more stable place emotionally. Yet here were many extremely vulnerable young women who were being prescribed powerful drugs and going through a series of drastic surgeries, while all the time under the care of supposedly qualified experts.

I am also interested in social engineering and the policing of language. Obviously these issues are highly relevant to the trans issue.

I also, in my 20s, experienced confusion about my gender identity. I am very happy to be a woman but I would probably have been referred for gender reassignment surgery had I been in my teens and 20s now.

This thread is a powerful read.

The testimonies of parents of trans identifying children, and the child of a trans identifying parent are particularly moving.

There is no hate here, just concern for women and girls, and equally, concern for vulnerable, traumatised people who are looking for healing, but instead are misdirected into transition.

forgot to add

I am very interested in the issue of astroturfing for the purposes of social engineering.

I am working on an expose of how some aspects of feminism (e.g. the Red Tent movement and various networks claiming to empower women via sexual trainings such as "womb yoga", "yoni empowerment" etc.) are appropriated by traffickers and pimps.

It seems highly relevant to me that at a time when misogynists, pimps and traffickers are training women in "how to be a woman" and how to "awaken your feminine essence" and denigrating dissidents with accusations that "you have a problem with your femininity" or you are "not a real woman" that there are groups of penis possessing people (PPPs) who claim that they are "real women".

We live in interesting times.

Does anyone know how to archive this thread? (I think that's a thing isn't it?)

One way is to 'Report' the thread and ask yo have it moved to "Classics" (section of MN with their best threads).
BUT I think there are a set of criteria for HQ to do this, whether or not this thread meets that criteria I wouldn't know.
Is this a "clsssics" worthy thread? I would assume the subject matter is too controversial.

This has also changed my perceptions of the world more widely - I am seeing the real scale of misogyny and it is terrifying. I have also lost my faith in the liberal media (which I used to think were more trustworthy), in the left (I still consider myself left-wing but I don't trust 'the left' and despair at its misogyny), in most politicians, the police and public bodies. If someone had told me a few years ago (and there will have been a few feminists trying to tell us) that 'being nice to trans people'' would result in males competing in women's sport, the Ministry of Justice moving rapists - with intact penises - into women's prisons, that the police would swoop down on people stating facts on the internet and countless other crazy things - I would never have believed it. And that's half the problem because people just don't believe it can be this crazy until they see it for themselves.

This ^^

Thanks, Another Peaked Women. It's crept up slowly and insidiously and it's only when you look back that you realise how dystopian things already are. We have a woman being locked up in a police cell for failing to use the correct pronoun.

Glinner, this is just crying out for a TV drama. Know anyone in the business?

I am very interested in the issue of astroturfing for the purposes of social engineering.

Me too. And I think this is an under-explored area in this debate. Start some threads on it, hoodathunkit!

"MrPan Re your question asking Ginner what he is going to do about this thread?
Sometimes it is enough to let women speak. For our words to be heard and for people to think."

yes I know this. It's also reasonable to ask, as the OP sounded 'purposeful'. There's no contradiction.

I came to this from both a women’s rights & an anti-propagandist, anti-totalitarian perspective. Began when I, lifelong lefty, complete live-&-let-liver, was piled on and shouted down by supposed progressives on a forum for quite innocently asking "but what does it mean to "feel like a woman inside"? How would one know? The mods there later took to banning people for similar comments.

Then we had Caitlin as Woman of the Year. Jenni Murray, Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie. The “Labour Women’s Officer” crap. Constantly seeing women who fought for all the rights we have now & for gay rights and against Section 28 now being blatantly lied about and smeared. Things I know are lies because I was around then & well remember people & what was said & the political landscape at the time. Completely false narratives & histories have now gained traction.

I first got afraid, when I saw both this & the many first hand examples of violent and abusive misogyny from tras, & that it was being ignored, minimised or praised, despite being no different from any other abusive, coercive or gaslighting behaviour. Misogyny is misogyny.
As is narcissism. As is homophobia. Esp the lesbophobia, which few who call themselves “progressive” are calling out. They’re joining in instead. The hatred, name-calling & disdain I’ve been seeing expressed by people I really didn’t expect - including a gay lecturer I know who calls himself a "feminist" - has been shocking.

Others have said it but it being the first time in my life I’ve felt that I can’t speak honestly and openly about my own life and experiences as it might be risky. Afraid to discuss with some of my own friends. Integrity is important to me. I’ve never been “on the wrong side of history” before or afraid that my rights would be dismantled. I thought we had this & were progressing. Now I’d have to lie & compromise my honesty & critical thought to be “acceptable” to those claiming to be progressive.

The realisation that laws were being changed on the quiet without consultation & seeing the exact people smeared and no-platformed being those with the analysis & experience to ask the difficult questions and pick up on systemic abuses of power & loopholes.

That major public orgs incl police being advised by Stonewall and Mermaids who are pushing the same narratives.The obvious entryism and political power and influence, including of social media companies. The no-platforming at universities. The activists & students campaigning to get people fired from their jobs unless they are prepared to deny reality, history, critical thought and their academic freedoms & follow the orthodoxy 100%. The targeting of dissenting women. It’s like the Cultural Revolution.

I found myself revisiting all the same literature, analysis and warnings of totalitarianism that I’d been looking at in 2016 when Trump & cronies got to power. I’m convinced they are two sides of the same coin. We all know when something smells wrong. What's going on here feels very wrong indeed and it stinks - and people are blindly going along with it and enabling it. That's what frightens me most.

This thread is the best ever, a good one to refer people to who doubt us. The stories are magnificent and heartbreaking and I don't understand how any sane person could welcome these changes, buy into the ludicrous fiction that transwomen are, literally, women.
If there was a "like" function (being an old Facebook member I keep wanting to press that button) I'd be "liking" every single post.

This just about sums it up for me though:
I feel that all or most of these issues could have been avoided with a little more consideration and understanding of the issues surrounding life as a woman; if we had been consulted and listened to rather than people just riding roughshod over our hard-won rights, assuming that it would be okay to take everything away from us in an instant; if trans men and women had their own spaces and rights. I acknowledge that they're a vulnerable group, and they have all my sympathy - but as such I also would expect them to realise how vulnerable women are and why it is simply not right to take the benefits accorded to another vulnerable group with no apparent consideration.

Especially the last sentence. There is nothing more typically toxic male than not listening to female issues or caring about them,. and these "women" just don't do that. They don't get it at all and are therefore not women.

Archiving:
On an iPad you can upload to iBooks.
On a PC you can view 1000 messages, select all and copy to a Word doc, keeping the source formatting and then tidying up a bit.
I expect there are better ways, but that's what I do.

I don't think I ever had a peak trans moment as such. I started by questioning the "born in the wrong body" rhetoric, quietly and to myself. Since I'm an atheist and I don't believe in souls or destiny, I believe one's body is a tool: useful in life, but once death comes and your brain stops functioning you cease to exist, except as a memory or concept. How can people square that with being born in the wrong body? To me, you are your body - nothing more than an amazing collection of cells working together meaningfully for a relatively short space of time.

I became a more radical feminist when our local hospital started allowing male partners to stay overnight. I questioned this via PALS and was contacted by several high-up healthcare professionals who basically all told me that men's desire to be with his child and partner trumped women's rights to comfort, privacy and dignity, which in turn led me to MN FWR.

*I am very interested in the issue of astroturfing for the purposes of social engineering.

Me too. And I think this is an under-explored area in this debate. Start some threads on it, hoodathunkit!*

ask and it shall be done!

Only not right away as I have a busy day and am already behind schedule.

You may wish to check out the following threads in the yoga forum, I have a lot more to say about these issues on both of these threads

Firstly we have a "tantric yoga" school where there have been multiple claims of sexual abuses and rapes. The school teaches women how to become "goddesses", this "discover your inner goddess" narrative is a read flag for traffickers and sexual predators.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/yoga/3446827-Rapes-misogyny-and-sexual-abuses-at-Agama-Yoga-Thailand

Secondly we have people promoting a form of hypnotic trance induction called "yoga nidra". Proponents claimed that this was an ancient esoteric tantric teaching that was brought to the west and refined by Swami Satyananda Saraswati. Until he and his fellow swamis were accused by multiple people of rape and child sexual abuse. Then they claimed that it was just an ancient practice that wasn't really the creation of Satyananda after all.

There is a lot more to say about this and I would welcome input from the feminist forum on this one.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/yoga/3385527-Yoga-Nidra-I-love-it

I held back on the second thread because is is pointless to engage in debate with "true believers", but I have a lot more to say on the issue.

I would suggest extreme caution re identifying allies re these abusive cults. It is mundane and commonplace for heroic champions to appear from nowhere and claim to be fighting against the abuse,, only to discover that they are involved in similar abusive cults themselves.

More later - I look forward to discussing this with anyone interested

On a PC you can view 1000 messages

Newer members can't view 1000 messages on one page, only 100.

Thank you!

I remember a kind of build up of things said that i found odd. For example, being at political meeting and someone saying gender neutral toilets were an urgent issue. Hearing people on the left spout this transgender ideology. Have always been a feminist and had an understanding that gender was a social construct, a tool of female oppression.

I remember feeling very lonely, sitting at home thinking about this, finding stuff on the internet. I kept questioning myself and thought I might have to go and live in a cave or something. If this is what the whole world believed, what could I do? I knew it wasn't true, I couldn't just go along with it.

Some people in the building I work in (I rent desk space) started banging on about it I think, in a very woke way (along with support for legalising prostitution). I then spoke to a friend who works there and we both agreed with each other. She pointed me in the direction of Miranda Yardley's writing. Hurrah! So from his writing I got a way in and found women out there who had been battling this for a time.

There was an incident at work where a man in his thirties started volunteering in the community cafe housed there. Blue hair, quite camp - I had assumed a gay man. I said something to him one day which involved me using the word 'sir' (It would have been a lighthearted thing if he'd cleared up something I spilt - as in 'why thank you kind sir'). And he very aggressively got in my face and shouted 'I'm not a sir'. I immediately said sorry (out of shock at having a man shout in my face). And he calmed down and said 'oh well you know now' or something.
Then, he asked the manager of the building (woman) about using toilets. There are male and female toilets, disabled toilet and two fully enclosed, floor to ceiling toilets, with wash hand basin and hand dryers. So the manager offered them. No. He wanted to use the women's toilets. Manager explained that women using the toilet would more than likely say something. To which he replied 'they can do that once, after that it's a hate crime'.
THEN I discovered he was staying in a local council run hostel for vulnerable women. I know the place and some of the women through my work. They are really vulnerable, have been put through all manner of shit in their young lives. The thought that this aggressive man was staying there made me very angry. And found out he had major drug and alcohol problems. Fortunately he did get moved and stopped volunteering.
But seeing how this one man could hold court like a demented toddler , demanding that we kow tow to demands and uphold his delusions was a shocking moment.
Since then I have organised a women's meeting with other friends and seen the community venue which hosted it come under sustained social media attack, boycotts by lgbt orgs etc.
I am in Scotland and to witness the capitulation of all our major publicly funded women's organisations, and all the lgbt orgs, aggressively proselytise this trans ideology is simultaneously maddening and wearying.

Mumsnet was a godsend. I have no children, I'm 53 and discovering the wise, witty, thoughtful people on this board has been a joy.

Do we think MN would put this in Classics.......?!

Sorry, I see that DpWm got there before me re:Classics!

MrPan I think it's in relation to Glinner bring called a bigot by someone and being sued for being a bigot. The man based his judgement on a twitter poll asking his followers if Glinner was a bigot. As 75% said yes, he got in touch with a solicitor and gave £50K to stonewall. I think.

Aka bigot batshit bollocks.

please correct me if I'm wrong

hoodathunkit

I know this is really important. It isn't just through the 'tantra' bullshit either. There are lots of links between Wiccans, Native American New Age revival, Crowleyites, Satanists, etc with normalising/justifying prostitution and abuse, along with kink, polyamory, and so on, under the banner of 'sacred' sexuality in the UK.

And a lot of the TRAs are linked with pro-prostitution lobbying, hence feminists being called both, often in the same breath, T**Fs and SWERFs ('sex worker' exclusionary radical feminists).

There is an organised movement to push back and hamper all the safeguards and boundaries which help to keep the worst excesses of male sexual entitlement, such as rape, child abuse, voyeurism, exhibitionism, kink, fetish, sadism, sexual enslavement, prostitution, etc, at bay. It currently rides on the coat tails of anti-censorship, feminism, LGB and transsexuals.

Ah no sorry, it's in support of manicmagpie.

Thanks for all the suggestions re archiving.

Classics .. I think so but I've no idea what the MN definition is .. I'm guessing not this then?

I only do MN for FWR and occasional specific kid focussed queries so now my mind is goggling at what a 'classic' MN thread might include.

.. did the 'penis beaker' thread qualify?

Joined so I could post on this as too afraid to post my views on twitter, it would probably lose me my job

Have a friend who is involved in Trans stuff at Parliamentary level. 3 years ago she was saying to me how difficult she found the meetings because the MtF behaved exactly like men still - dominating the meetings, speaking over people, sending her stroppy emails if they didnt like what was agreed whereas the FtM tended to not say much and got talked over. Over the last 3 years her position has shifted too the point where she used the term TERFy to describe my views when I said that transwomen were not women and is now completely on board with the transwomen are women mantra even though she is a lesbian herself which makes me really really sad.

I always regarded myself as an ally and was totally on board with trans rights until I realised that Stonewall had decided that anyone from a fully transitioned transsexual to a bloke who puts on a dress once a week in his office at credit suisse was a woman if they chose to use the word. I mean how fecking dare you??

i have a friend in her 20s whose teenage brother has declared himself to be trans and she's so desperately trying to be woke and supportive but its really hard. She's been assaulted and cat called as we nearly all have and shes been told she has to accept that her brother now has the same female experiences she has had and he so obviously has not

there are so many others; the challeners, martina, dr rachel, dr harrop, cis (fuck off!) menustrators, people with cervixes, pregnant people, chest feeders...I mean once you start to list it, it's beyond terrifying

and the worse thing is how few people realise it or think it's just a bunch of feminists being mean to a tiny handful of people who want to live their lives peacefully as opposed to something that threatens are ability to even define ourselves as a sex

Oily Lamberts response to this on Twitter is really interesting its a 13 part tweet which lists some of the people/organisations which refused to take any part in the documentary 'Trans kids its time to talk'.

mobile.twitter.com/ollylambert/status/1100693458048770048

Wow.