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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Help a brother out

701 replies

Glinner · 26/02/2019 15:06

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

OP posts:
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thatdamnwoman · 26/02/2019 21:33

Evening, Glinner, you star. You did ask, so...

I first began to get an idea of what we were up against a decade or so ago. I knew two lesbians who were on a regional Stonewall committee. Also on that committee was a Q guy who, it turned out, was making secret recordings of the committee meetings for his PhD. The committee chair knew, the rest of the committee didn't. This was 2008, perhaps — well before the formal inclusion of Q and T but there was already discussion of Q and T, with T sort of tagging along with the Q agenda. Long story short, the Q PhD student quoted a perfectly reasonable gender critical remark that one of the lesbians on the committee had said in a public lecture. He quoted her out of context, ridiculing her and giving the impression that she was transphobic. He also gave enough information for her to be identified by at least one of the people in the audience who warned her what had happened. She took this up with Stonewall who did nothing to support her or the other lesbian on the committee who protested about this. The gender studies department of the university supported their student and insisted his behaviour was ethical. It was made clear that being GC was a problem. The dykes were thrown under the bus. That was my introduction to the whole trans and queer world and the end of my support for Stonewall.

Next thing that happened was that a mtf trans person turned up at a local lesbian event. When the women who ran it asked if they could meet privately to discuss the situation this individual became aggressive and started the whole 'I know my rights as a woman' number' and demanded access to lesbian events and the local women's centre so they could 'educate' women. It's a weird situation: you're trying to be polite and reasonable but basically you've got someone with male characteristics refusing to offer any useful information and behaving in what feels like a threatening manner. Lots of lesbians are quite vulnerable and isolated and a place where they know they'll be among other women like them, women to whom they don't have to explain themselves and where they won't have to deal with the male gaze or male judgment is important. This individual didn't feel safe to be around: they had come to proselytise.

Anyway, because of this individual's threats an fears of legal reprisals (even in those days the police were unsupportive) they were granted access to the main local women's organisation. They attended an event there but made unwanted physical contact with a number of women who complained. As a result of this a significant number of women stopped attending events. A number of younger woke and lib-fem women decided the older second-wave women were bigots and transphobes. Women who'd worked together for the benefit of other women for years fell out with each other. Over a period of 18 months or so, everything fell apart and shut down.

The lesbians went pretty much underground. The local women's centre which supported various women's group — the BAME women's group, the lesbians, mental health services for women and so on — folded as women took pro and anti-trans sides. There is no coordinated women's network in this area any more.

The transactivists around here have gone on to threaten other women-only groups. There was a women's music festival that attracted female musicians from around the world. It folded when the organisers were approached by a notorious local transactivist who's also infiltrated Women's Aid. You have to understand that many women's groups, organisations and events are run on a voluntary basis and a shoestring. When transactivists pitch up and threaten to cause trouble women have a limited amount of energy for fighting. They either let the TRAs in or shut the organisation/ group down. I could weep when I think what we've lost over the last decade.

Exploitedteadrinker · 26/02/2019 21:37

Those pesky Spartacus threads that kept appearing in Active. I didn't understand why those nasty feminists were being so mean. So I started reading, kept reading, became Spartacus, but the subject felt like an intellectual argument that wouldn't ever affect me. I knew sense would prevail because the whole self-id thing was so obviously ridiculous.

And then, my DD started talking about her friend who bound their chest and had changed their name and were now a gay boy. And the school and all their friends were supportive. And DD couldn't see any problems with this, everytime we discussed it, with me expecting to suddenly understand why a beautiful, gender non-conforming teenager would believe that they were born in the wrong body, I would be accused of being obsessed by genitals and sex, and everytime I'd say "but it's impossible to change your sex", I was accused of being a bigot. Transgenderism had hit our small sleepy town, this shit was really real.

I realised that sense wasn't prevailing, the whole world appeared to be going mad, or was it just me going mad? Luckily, FWR is here to reassure me that there are bloody loads of us who see the Emperor's New Clothes for what they are, and that we can fight back.

Everyday there is fresh insanity to keep me peaked.

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 26/02/2019 21:38

Firstly. I worry about all the shit you get glinner. It's a brave handful that stick their heads above the parapet, Julia, Rosa, Louise, Kathleen, Julie, to name but a few. However the constant dog piling on some of your tweets makes me so cross. You've literally said nothing that hasn't been said on the BBC yesterday. You are a very brave and good man and Flowers you'd get a big hug / pint from me if I ever met you.

My peak. A beardy wokey blokey friend launched into a vicious attack on Jenni Murray for saying transwomen were different to real women. It was the way him and his friends attacked her looks, her age. That's from people who see themselves as pious almost normally.

I believe there IS A difference between transwomen and biological women. I agreed with Jenni Murray but I was too afraid to say.

I let them be sexist, and ageist and downright nasty, because I was afraid they'd turn on me. From that time on I started to fight back in my own way.

Throw a log on the bonfire deary, it's getting a bit chilly up on the stake.

AnyFucker · 26/02/2019 21:38

This is a brilliant thread

Could it be stickied on the feminism board ?

Everything is here... everything that is important about this issue

lottiebel123 · 26/02/2019 21:40

it was a few years ago and many of my daughter's teenage friends were identifying as non binary or Trans. I was a bit Hmm about it, but didn't say much. However, a few years down the line they're no longer identifying as non binary and Trans. Two of them were diagnosed with ASD and one had a traumatic early childhood (and this seemed like a cry for help and desperate search for identity.) I did speak up at the time, (with my daughter's not their friends) saying that they were too young to decide they were Trans and that I thought the idea of non binary was a bit daft, but I was told that I didn't understand and they were definitely going to transition. That's where the dawning realisation started.
Oh and Caitlyn Jenner (and the narcissistic portrayal on Call Me Cait.)
At the time, I posted on a thread about Caitlyn Jenner and mentioned Bruce, using male pronouns. I was shot down by numerous people for dead naming and misgendering. I thought it was absolutely fucking nuts but most people on the thread didn't seem to care that a person who had spent 60 odd years enjoying white male privilege could now just transform and become a woman. Just like that.

FleetsumNJetsum · 26/02/2019 21:41

Before I was aware of any sides to this trans movement, my brother transitioned. He was in his late 50s, his marriage had broken down and he started drinking and had a mental breakdown. I don't know how I can explain how this was SO not the person who would really be a woman, just so not... I won't include the details because. But trust me, my brother did not have MH issues because he was hiding his desire to be a woman. He had MH issues, sure, and was treated by someone who "uncovered the truth" that he was really a woman. I didn't get it, but I didn't really mind, and thought that if it made them happy, then good. Trouble was, I just couldn't do the "she" and "sister" thing. Not that I did not want to just in normal conversation being very relaxed and just talking, I kept on saying he and him. I would beat myself up about it after but I thought it was an "old dog new tricks" thing, since he was my brother for over 50 years, changing now seemed fucking weird. I didn't have a lot of contact so usually not a big problem but it really was a block why can't I say sister??

Years later my daughter was talking with some feeling about people who felt they had to surgically alter their bodies because they felt they were trapped in the wrong body, when gender is just a made up thing anyway...why not just wear what you want to wear and leave your body intact... And despite my brother/now sister that was the first time I had thought through of any of this, the first glimpse of something that was going on that I had not been fully understanding. My daughter directed me to Mumsnet. Two short years ago. And my life has changed. I know why I cannot say "she" and "sister". Cognitive dissonance. I was being made to lie to myself and to others.

I have learned a lot. I am not the same person, in fact. And I am not surprised that the transition has not solved my new sister's MH issues.

RockyFlintstone · 26/02/2019 21:42

Have just read Glinners thread on Twitter as well, and it's made me quite emotional. So much support for women, more and more people willing to speak up and say 'no' to what has been quite frankly an abusive and gaslighting agenda up until now.

What's also heartening is all the different times at which the scales fell from people's eyes on this, some really recently. It just shows that all the discussion, all the meetings, all the hard work, all that pulling inch by inch out into the sunlight... Its worth it.

You are all amazing ❤️

OhHolyJesus · 26/02/2019 21:45

Tea break and a bunnnnn???

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518902-Glinner-link

Mrscaindingle · 26/02/2019 21:45

I owe a huge amount to MN for raising my awareness of this topic and like many others was a left leaning, live and let live LGBT ally who thought that some of these threads about transgender were prejudiced and some of the posters seemed a bit...unhinged Blush.
The no platforming of Germaine Greer and how absolutely certain she was of what she was saying caught my interest and then I went down the rabbit hole from which there was no return. As a pp said once you see it you can't go back to how you previously viewed the world.
I have to be careful with DS1 (18) who has swallowed this wholesale and thinks I am an out of touch terf, he is gay and takes it personally when I am critical of the trans movement. However he is a smart boy who I think will realise what is happening in time but I have been able to get through to DS2 who totally gets it.
DS1 loved dressing in women's clothes, playing with traditionally girls toys, he loves Ru Paul's Drag Race and is a gorgeous non gender conforming gay man. He just needed space to be who he is and unconditionally accepted for that. I worry that a lot of these kids are being adopted into the T part of LGBT before they have a chance to figure themselves out.

RockyFlintstone · 26/02/2019 21:48

DS1 loved dressing in women's clothes, playing with traditionally girls toys, he loves Ru Paul's Drag Race and is a gorgeous non gender conforming gay man.

I think in time, your son will thank his lucky stars for his T*rfy mum Smile

lottiebel123 · 26/02/2019 21:50

oh yes @Mrscaindingle, I read Germaine's book where she discussed this subject several years ago. I remember being quite shocked and horrified that she was being so bigoted (!) whilst at the time knowing, but refusing to acknowledge it even in my own private thoughts (!) that she was right. I knew it, but my nice, liberal, woke self was pushing those thoughts under.

Coyoacan · 26/02/2019 21:56

I owe a huge amount to MN for raising my awareness of this topic

Me too. Thanks to the vast reservoir of knowledge here, from doctors, biologists, social workers, etc. and your wonderful hearts.

AncientLights · 26/02/2019 22:00

I stumbled upon the Girl Guides fiasco totally by chance - someone on here 'popped over' to Gransnet, which I'd just joined (don't bother) so I came her to take a look and am hooked. I have no history with GG but was incredulous that anyone with even half a brain could think it was acceptable to allow a man or boy to sleep/shower etc with girls on his say so. Have these GG people never met any weirdos, never had any unwanted attention from men? How could they be so naive? Anyway, on and on it went: the all women shortlists that aren't, the disappearing safe spaces for women, the mangling of the language, the cognitive dissonance - just everything that all the splendid women & a few men have already mentioned.

I have noticed how, by their very insistence on how female they are, these TWs are proving how male they are. The dominance, the shouting, the physicality and the utter lack of awareness of what it is to be female. I won't be told my body is irrelevant to my life. I have led the life I have because of my biology, my female body, which has grown new human beings, has rejected a few before term, produced milk and done the most amazing things that a male body will never, ever do. However jealous some of them are.

I really fear for the future.

RedRosa90 · 26/02/2019 22:03

The local women's centre which supported various women's group — the BAME women's group, the lesbians, mental health services for women and so on — folded as women took pro and anti-trans sides. There is no coordinated women's network in this area any more. Thank you for your comment thatdamnwoman, this is very sad. Sad for staff and volunteers who passionately believe in their work and devastating for women who lose their lifelines. So many women's orgs are being put under pressure like this where they either conform or fold. It's bullying and it's targetted specifically at women. That so few people are speaking out is so disheartening and feels like a huge abandonment but people are scared to. It's really ironic that queertrans activists are calling gender critical people fascists when these are the tactics they are using against vulnerable women and their workers.

HerFemaleness · 26/02/2019 22:03

It was around the time the CofE was voting whether to allow women to be bishops, 2012ish. I'd had a number of arguments with men who were against women bishops and who pointed to the 'science' of gender differences which apparently show women are better suited to domestic servitude, while men are better suited to leadership.

At some point after that I found myself arguing that transwomen have women's brains in men's bodies and then I realised I don't actually believe that. So I had a bit of a painful re-evaluation and had a time of much reading and I found that I couldn't believe, there were so many inconsistencies and contradictions in gender ideology. A lack of clarity and a reluctance to define terms, and a blatant anti-science agenda spanning from outright denial of observed material reality, to trying to control research.

Mrscaindingle · 26/02/2019 22:05

Thanks Rocky Wink I do hope so.

NotBadConsidering · 26/02/2019 22:07

For me, being in Oz, it was Hannah Mouncey. Then it was Hannah Mouncey being given a column in the Guardian. Then it was the clear editorial and moderation policy of the Guardian who can just flick right off. Then I came to FWR and read a whole load of eye opening stuff. The peak for me was that truely awful Autostraddle “advice” article. Just vile.

NotBadConsidering · 26/02/2019 22:08

Fuck right off I mean.

Bronze · 26/02/2019 22:08

When a menopause group I was a member of became swamped by TRAs policing language. Group closed (how do you talk about medically induces meno without female biology?). I still miss that group.

CharlyGoodyWorm · 26/02/2019 22:13

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TooSadToSay · 26/02/2019 22:15

Actually it was a colleague at work constantly bringing up the T (super woke workplace). I happened to answer with my true opinions without realising the PC land mine I was stepping on.

I’m massively against no platforming due to the culture of my home country being so the Greer situation was part of our discussions.

But the whole pussy hats thing seemed outrageous to me and I said as much to my colleague (when she brought it up). I mean WTF, it was a reaction to Trump’s graphic misogyny not a decision tailored to piss TW off. I saw then that it was so much about entitlement and women having to subjugate themselves.

Since then I’ve been “worrying about the children” and I can’t believe how gung ho people are about giving kids experimental drugs.

When I came to MN I realised my colleague must see me as a raging transphobe. But that’s simply not the case, I think it must be incredibly difficult to have dysphoria. I would never misgender someone or treat them with disrespect. But the censoriousness of the woke left is mad and the inability to have sensible discussion about whose rights to favour in a clash makes me so raging.

FreckledLeopard · 26/02/2019 22:16

I've been on Mumsnet for well over a decade and around five years ago a thread caught my eye about how TRAs had deemed female genital mutilation to be transphobic. I followed a few of the links onto Twitter and came across various outlandish statements.

Gradually I came across more reading material concerning the marginalisation of women's rights. At the time I was in a lesbian relationship and mixing in LGBT circles so was still very left leaning and welcoming of the occasional FtM (post-op) individuals I came across. What really made me sit up and pay attention though, was the presence at an LGBT family picnic of a drunk, bearded and aggressive man in a dress, 'identifying' as a woman, and seeing all the lesbians and others at the event politely accepting the aggressive behaviour and not wanting to challenge it. I felt intimidated and angry and started spending more time reading the feminist boards here.

The all-women shortlist debacle really opened my eyes further and I've now spent every day reading more and more and peak transing almost hourly. I share a lot of articles on Facebook and a few friends are brave enough to put their heads above the parapet and like the posts. The vast majority of people, though, appear utterly unaware of the issue, though thankfully The Times and some other mainstream media are highlighting the incurrent insanity and the real risks to women.

Thank you so much for sticking up for women's rights and taking on the bullies!

QuietContraryMary · 26/02/2019 22:18

It was October 2015, Tara Hudson. I googled, found the newspaper interviews about 'I'm actually a bloke', 'seven-inch surprise', the punters' reports, and then looked at the blatant lies from the mass media that this person with multiple convictions for violent crimes was actually some sort of Barbie doll (aided by some dodgy camera angles that I've since become more familiar with), and a 'make-up artist' (reality a porn star/prostitute)

I've since then posted on various Twitter accounts about this stuff and you realise that blatant lies are not so much the exception as the rule.

Though I would say with respect to Tara, that while they are obviously quite a violent person, I don't think that they are a danger to women - Tara's sexual interests are with men. The Tara case was really the trojan horse for far more horrifying people - like 'Katie' the child molester in Fife today, Karen White, and others.

If it hadn't been for the blatant and unrepentant lies in the reporting about Tara then Karen White would have not been able to attack women in prison.

Thinktwicefirst · 26/02/2019 22:19

I think there was an aibu thread about the first woman on the front line in the army, who had been 'a woman' for a month. They had jumped the queue as soon as women were eligible for the role because they were already trained and doing the job. It just seemed utterly unfair, I could see the worrying precedent and the reporting in my usual leftie sources of news were oddly vague about the 'trans' part of the story.

Then I went through the radicalising experiences of childbirth and breastfeeding and realised how privileged you have to be to define yourself as woman without your adulthood being judged on whether you have or haven't done these things. And then the onslaught of boring blue and brown clothes for a baby.

And then I became a bereaved mother and I find myself comparing this enormous, life changing, personality changing, miserable loss with the way TRAs treat their emotions. Other people's lives hurt my feelings but I don't demand that they stop having children, or saying thoughtless, insensitive and sometimes unkind things. I accept that I am part of a group that I didn't chose to be in and I stick a smile on my face and try not to make it anyone else's problem. I feel anger sometimes but I don't expect the world to adjust to my needs.

My DS had to have medical interventions in his short life and just the thought of children (or adults actually) being on medications or having surgery that they don't need for health reasons makes me feel sick.

That was rambly and possibly sounds like a tangent but it feels good to write it down. I defy anyone to call me 'cis'.

rocketromano · 26/02/2019 22:30

For me it was firstly reading about Fallon Fox and the changes planned by IOC, the Spartacus threads and then later reading in depth about Blanchard’s research into autogynephilia. He immersed himself into that community and spoke to many people while writing about what he found (with the permission of those he spoke to)
Autogynephilia was an accepted part of the transgender /transsexual community back then but now it’s completely denied/ rebuked etc.
And of course once I realised the majority of transwomen kept their male genitalia and didn’t take hormones then I could never go back to thinking we should just accept them as women
From there we’ve had Karen White, Jess Bradley, Aimee Challenor, Hannah Mouncey, Laurel Hubbard.....the list is endless. And it just keeps on coming Girl Guides, Rachel McKinnon. Susie Green/ mermaids, light being shone on the lack of evidence relating to current practice at the Tavistock
We need to keep talking as perhaps soon people will start to listen