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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Help a brother out

701 replies

Glinner · 26/02/2019 15:06

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 26/02/2019 22:32

The first time I twigged something was up was when Wings over Scotland tweeted deliberately "misgendering" Chelsea Manning.

The pile on was huge and I realised that what he said must have been absolutely horrific by the reaction. The thing is though, while Wings is hated by many and has an acerbic posting style he is generally right. So I began to wonder if perhaps he could be right about this.

It was only the beginning of a thought, but I was more aware and began to notice other things going on. That began my long walk up towards peak trans - the thing is though this mountain has so many bloody false summits, every time I think I'm at the top I realise there is still more to come

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 26/02/2019 22:32

DD came out as transgender in Jan 2012 after 6 months of incessant talking about the subject. As DD is still fragile I talk quietly offline about the issues. This was my first post on Mumsnet regarding DD on 31st Aug 2016:

I am parent who's not an activist, and isn't even posting, but whose NON-ADULT child is transitioning.

I have found Mumsnet invaluable over the last few years. My daughter came as transgender to us in 2012. It was a very isolating confusing time. It came out of the blue after quite a turbulent time in the family.

At the time (as I do now) I had the opinion that you fundamentally can not change your sex. There's nothing wrong with men presenting as a woman or a woman as a man. It was an opinion I kept to myself amongst my liberal friends. When I told one liberal friend about my daughter, her reaction was blind acceptance and she actually said 'How cool'. It was not cool.

A few months after my daughter came out to us www.mumsnet.com/Talk/teenagers/1464511-My-14-Old-Daughter-Says-She-Wants-to-be-a-Boy?pg=1this thread popped up. I was not alone. There were woman who were being sensible, asking questions, having valid concerns about the same things I was.

This line on the tread struck home, I would say that if you opt for counselling, be very very careful in the counsellor that you select. If they don't know what they're doing in this delicate area, they could do more harm than good.

My daughter was very fragile, she was getting a lot of her information from the internet and and any dissension from us would result in us being being called transphobic bigots, given suicide rates, etc. She was being fed rhetoric and was gobbling it up. At the time the TA movement was gaining a louder voice, I could see the future and I didn't like it. My view was that any counsellor we saw would validate her feelings of dysphoria and not question them. She had very valid reasons to want to change herself and the situation, though it's a very common teenage feeling, to want to be someone else, but this was not explored. I was so glad that thread was not high-jacked by TAs and was allowed to stay. Though towards the end a private space was created where mums in a similar position could discuss it in private without being attacked.

As gender dysphoria is not classified as a mental health condition (a whole other issue - why is the only dysphoria not classed as a mental health issue?) we had to first be referred to the local children's services, who recommended the local LGBT youth club, however, I knew some of the people there were also transgender and knew they feeding her the same rhetoric. Thankfully, I had the posters on Mumsnet who were saying the things I was thinking. After a disastrous CAMHS appointment where they spouted the wonky science of hormonal washes in the womb and lady/man brains and given forums such as Mermaids to explore. Ultimately, we were referred to the Tavistock clinic. Now some may think this is child abuse, but I delayed our referral as I didn't trust the clinicians not to indoctrinate her further.

All the information out there at the time spun the line that if you feel like a boy you are a boy, no questions, full stop. If you disagree with your child they will kill themselves. Through Mumsnet I discovered more and more people who thought like me:

4thwavenow.com/

www.transgendertrend.com/

gendercriticaldad.blogspot.co.uk/

There's a lot I've missed out, but now, 4 years later, she's happier in herself, accepts herself and can see that by wanting to be a boy/man she's hurting women. Without the voices on Mumsnet I'm not sure I could have stayed strong in my conviction. So please MNHQ do not silence the debate because it may hurt some hypothetical person. You could argue that the majority of posts on here could be perceived as offensive to someone somewhere.

The I am Spartacus Thread - moved me to tears. There were woman standing up for me and my family.

I am NonHypotheticalLurkingParent and I am Spartacus.

Gwlondon · 26/02/2019 22:34

CharlyGoodyWorm I am sorry for what you have been through.

ThinkTwiceFirst I am sorry for your loss.

I peaked about the smear test thing. A woman asked for a female nurse for a smear. At the appointment the nurse didn’t appear to be a woman, the nurse said “don’t worry I am a woman”. The patient didn’t go through with it. Apparently it was an admin error. It was a front page article in the Times. That’s it. You can’t request a woman for a smear. It probably means you can’t even request a chaporene if the nurse considers themselves a woman.

I have nothing against male nurses and doctors. My male obstetrician gave me a sweep. But honestly, if you want a woman (for smear or sweep) for what ever reason, you should get one. No ifs no buts.

Urgh2019 · 26/02/2019 22:37

I’ve watched a grown man ruin his life by ‘transitioning’.
He had been rejected by his family for being gay and suddenly decided he was a ‘woman’.
Did go through the whole year living as a (very very unconvincing) woman before having surgery.
I was out with her post- surgery. A middle aged, overweight ‘woman’ in a badly fitting wig and heels. She was shocked that the heterosexual men in the pub weren’t all attracted to her. She had been mis-sold a lie that she would be a woman and all men would not want to be with her - I assume in an acceptable ‘hetrosexual’ relationship.
The worst thing js there was nothing in their personality which was like a woman and they loved to bore you about real beer and horse racing.

And her family still rejected her. She quickly realised that this wasn’t the dream she had been sold and gave up dressing up and ditched the wigs and now kinda dresses like a man again but with breasts. I think they have given up trying to have a relationship as they would no longer be attractive to gay men either now their body is buctured.

beeyourself · 26/02/2019 22:39

I'm like lots of others. Always considered myself feminist. But bit by bit...

Didn't like the term "cis" but couldn't explain why
Caitlin Jenner being named woman of the year and saying the toughest thing about being a woman was deciding what to wear 1 that really fucked me off.
The reaction to Jenni Murray's article horrified me.
Venice getting thrown out of a Labour Party party because LM felt uncomfortable

All this time I was reading these boards and getting more and more concerned and angry. Which has led to now.

Datun · 26/02/2019 22:40

This thread is amazing.

There have been attempts at similar threads, but this one is notable by the sheer number of calm, clear and rational voices.

The veracity woven through every single post is undeniable. The similarities too numerous to be either coincidence or random.

Coupled with the Twitter thread, it makes vital reading.

Pywife2 · 26/02/2019 22:45

I went to Leeds University in the early 80s and Peter Sutcliffe murdered a women in the nearby student flats. The subsequent policing of women woke me up to the reality of male violence in our society, and the fact that women carry the blame for it. My response was to join the local Rape Crisis and I developed a radical feminist awareness of how male violence shapes our society and how important it is for women to organise as women.

There was more anger from the male students about women only meetings than about the murders.

After leaving college I got involved with socialist organisations and moved away from separatist politics, working with men and women to try and change society for the better, but I have never stopped believing that women need to organise independently of men to really understand our position in society and tackle the violence that keeps us there. Men simply derail the process with NAMALT and take over the discussion every time.

When I saw women's organisations at risk because transwomen MUST be allowed to participate, I recognised the same tired old attitudes coming back in a new guise. Men simply cannot allow women to organise autonomously. Having seen how vital women only support services are to survivors of violence, I couldn't ignore the issue any more, I had to participate in the consultation for the gender recognition act. Like a lot of other posters I had an Emperor's New Clothes experience the more I looked into it, seeking arguments on both sides but finding rationality on only one. Even some of my socialist friends seem taken in by this nonsense, and I just look at them in disbelief!

The whole other layer is the way freedom of speech has been eroded and how seemingly rational people parrot this nonsense. I do see elements of Stalinism in that and it's chilling.

If women can't meet as women, can't even define ourselves as women, we can't defend ourselves. I've seen this for real in my own life. We're fighting for survival here.

Mrscaindingle · 26/02/2019 22:47

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent what a great post although I am sorry you and your daughter went through what sounds like a nightmare. It just proves what all the evidence is showing us that the huge increase in children presenting with gender dysphoria has a social contagion element.

And Urgh2019 how sad.

adultFemaleElf · 26/02/2019 22:53

Glinner - as a fellow Irish emigrant to the U.K. I am bloody proud of you. You were for a long time the only well known celebrity speaking out. And still are to a large extent -sadly.
I was also let and let live for decades. Left leaning and liberal. I welcomed transwomen into female spaces....
More recently in the past few years a friend became very GC and I had heard her speak about a few things but thought she was exaggerating. Then I read a few posts on FWR. I’d been on mumsnet for years and up to then the focus for me was topics like pregnancy, childbirth, fertility, miscarriage, juggling work and childcare...in short the issues that affect women.
Anyway my eyes were opened when the Labour AWS policy was published. Then I went to A Women’s Place event, the one in London where Heather, Sophie, Miranda, Deborah, Lucy and various other well-known people stood up and spoke. Janice Turner was a few seats away. The protesters outside were loud and threatening and I was quite scared entering and leaving the venue. I read more and more and I couldn’t believe that everything that naysayers said would never happen just kept happening. To name but a few Karen White. Pippa Bunce. Rachel McKinnon. Tara Wolf. Munroe Bergoff. The list is endless. I wrote to my Labour female MP about the issue of AWS and her response implied I was a bigot for not accepting the Labour policy that transwomen are women. If it wasn’t for Mumsnet I think I would have felt very isolated indeed.
I often wish I was retired so I could speak out about this issue without fear of reprisals. It sucks not being able to speak. Thanks for being our voice. So I guess I was radicalised by Mumsnet. And I only logged in to find help with morning sickness all those years ago :)

Redshoeblueshoe · 26/02/2019 22:54

Beeyourself I feel exactly the same.
Caitlyn the toughest thing about being a woman - as a single parent I can still remember years ago feeling desperate about wether to pay my electricity bill, or buy food.
Deciding what dress to wear really Caitlyn

littlbrowndog · 26/02/2019 22:54

Lurking parent 💐💐💐

Charley50 · 26/02/2019 22:57

This thread is amazing, but it's devastating how much damage has been done. So glad/hopeful that things are starting to change now.

GillyJen · 26/02/2019 23:05

This is so personal to me, I lost my bestfriend and a whole social group because I refruse to tow the line.

So many people have unfollowed me, so many people who I knew and danced and laughed with. Gone.

We were all so woke.

I was one of the least educated of the bunch I hung out with from a popular London forum, going to squat parties and dancing all night etc…

I was shocked when I said on FB that something wasn’t right about transwomen taking over women’s places and that’s why lesbians aren’t happy. And in response the alpha male of woke bros in the group I was aligned to posted pictures telling me the right way lesbians should act at pride and then pics of the wrong way they should act – the protest.

And of course, when I said perhaps men should stay out of this, he shouted me down and I was set upon by women and men alike. I was told I am on the wrong side of history. Whatever I said I was the oppressor or a bigot. The men (none of which I’d ever slept with, and I do wonder if there’s something in that?) tried to destroy me. These were people I hung out with. The vitriol was unbelievable.

Then around a week later same woke bro decided to post something derogatory about TERFS, and I should’ve ignored it… but I didn’t, so I got attacked again. And again the next month I was attacked – all still on FB - for trying to help a mother who felt they were losing their daughter, but I misgendered the now son and everyone went for a pile on. It was around now my best friend decided I was a bigot. I have a trans babysitter by the way, FtM. I probably know 100% more properly transitioning people than any of them ffs.

We used to hang out together! All of us. I was one of the sensible ones who always knew where the fire exits were in these dodgy buildings we used to danced the night and day away in.

The saddest thing was with my best mate. She messaged me and asked if I was sure I wasn’t a bigot. We argued and made up. Cos I actually know decent trans people and she doesn’t know any. But when I messaged her, another social warrior and the woke bro mentioned above to say I don’t feel I can post on facebook anymore, she messaged I wont debate this with you”

I know I’m not wrong…

pombear · 26/02/2019 23:12

Wow, looking at this thread, it's enormously powerful.

(Mainly) women sharing thoughtful, calm and thought-through responses, many sharing very personal experiences.

As much as there are frustrations, MNHQ have been awesome in hosting discussion here.

I've just been thinking of all those TRAs who have blown through the board expecting to educate/punish/thought-police people and fail over the last few years. And, in fact, them helpfully having mostly the opposite affect of helping many of us think through and shape our arguments against their position even further.

For me:
Always on the left side of politics. Campaigning and taking action for the L, G and B, and then the T.

Never had any truck with gender stereotypes, and raised a child to recognise the boxes and labels that those stereotypes can limit you with. Blindly thought the world was generally moving in the same way.

Then saw the Spartacus threads and started exploring my own perspective more deeply. And became aware of what was changing in society, in terms of moving back to gender 'boxes'. And for whom, and why.

Magdalen Berns, and Peachyoghurt youtubes made me Shock and then made me think. Jenni Murray incident made me Angry and really made me start paying attention.

Got angry on behalf of lesbians being obviously the 'canary in the coalmine' that most other people seemed to be ignoring, particularly the groups tht claimed to represent lesbian interests.

Was properly involved and starting to understand the issue when the Speaker's Corner incident happened to Maria.

Tsunami of events after that, pouring in week after week since, all those listed by others here.

Woke up my feminism again (ta!).

DpWm · 26/02/2019 23:13

Gillyjen
Shock
Fuck that shit they'll grow up one day and be so ashamed of themselves.

Get some nice friends. Smile

AnneEyhtMeyer · 26/02/2019 23:16

In the early 90s I moved into a shared house with a bunch of men. One was very very camp. After a few months he started wearing women's clothing around the house and taking 2 hour long candlelit baths in the only bathroom in the house. He said he had to do this because it was "what women do". I said it was what selfish bastards do not women. He got nastier and nastier to me for not treating him like a woman. In my early 20s naivety I just thought he was an attention seeking narcissist.

Fast forward to 2015 and the IOC decision and Caitlyn Jenner nonsense and conversations on MN being derailed every time women started speaking and I could finally join the dots and see it was all part of the same thing. Misogyny.

stillathing · 26/02/2019 23:20

thinktwice Flowers
your post made so much sense

Glinnerismyhero · 26/02/2019 23:21

I am here because of You mr Glinner, you made me alerted me to what was happening to women’s hard won sex based rights. Seeing women who I respect being hounded and bullied for speaking the truth. Women are adult human females, male bodied athletes competing unfairly in women’s sports and the doyen of fairness Jenny Murray being no platformed.
A final point my partner is being treated for prostrate cancer, with female hormones (successfully) he still has to open the pickle jar because his male biology means he is still stronger than me

GillyJen · 26/02/2019 23:22

Im happy for you to put this on twitter - just not my username x

FrancisAaron · 26/02/2019 23:25

My story is somewhat different – highly personal.

A few years back I sought to get in contact with my father. I hadn’t seen him since my mother’s death when I was 11. I had a great many questions for him about the past. So I sent a letter to his old address, figuring he might still live there. I received a letter back. I spoke to my father on the phone; it was the first conversation we’d had in years. I remember thinking that his voice sounded different… higher? I put it down to age. A few days later, I told my uncle that I had contacted him. My uncle, in no roundabout manner, told me: – “Your father has his transgender certificate now.”

My first reaction was puzzlement. A transgender certificate – what is that? I went away that night in a state of mild shock, which worsened the day after. I was working in a bar at the time, and I had some sort of panic attack on shift. A sense of asphyxiation swept over me, to the point an ambulance was called. Anyway, after that mess I went home and tried to sleep. The shock didn’t subside. Over the coming weeks I wrestled with the revelation: my father is now – a “woman." I spent every spare second researching transexualism, gender dysphoria, reassignment surgery... trying to understand if there were a neurobiological basis for the condition.

I spoke to my father on the phone soon after. I didn’t let on that I knew about it all. He couldn’t muster the courage to tell me. Eventually, I told him I knew. “…you know?” A great sigh of relief gushed forth from him. He clamoured to tell me about it but he wasn’t making much sense. Everything was a mess, much as it always has been with him. He told me what had led him to his decision to transition. He’d felt that way for years apparently – that he wasn’t a man. He told me about the process he underwent: the hospital trips, psychiatric checks, surgical procedures, hormone therapy – all of it.

I went away feeling thoroughly perplexed.

There’s that old psychological theory: we all have a distinct “model” of the world, which creates meaning and gives purpose. But when a traumatic event occurs – a death, a loss, a divorce – our model is rendered useless in some fashion. What follows is a painful restructuring of reality. And therefore: an inevitable suffering. A suffering, that is, until a fresh model is built to accomodate the new facts.

I soon became aware that this transgender issue had become a big deal. While this was raging on in the background, I continued to speak to my father via post. We arranged to meet. I met him in St Anne’s, Lytham, and we spent a Sunday afternoon talking. He had been in some sort of friendship/relationship with a guy who had recently died. This loss had left him feeling empty, desolate, abandoned – to the point whereby he found it difficult now to bring himself to believe in his “female” identity. He talked about there being “a way back.”

Meeting my father – my father! – in this manner hammered home a reality to me: a man cannot become a woman anymore than a man can become a bat. I did not share this thought with him, but it became ever more true the more I thought about it. And seeing how he had built this model of himself – this mask, this cloak, this disguise – and hearing now how he didn’t "believe in it anymore” – merely served to solidify my suspicions.

I find that much of this transgender stuff is about control. My father had no control over anything in his life. His house was always a tip; his poetry didn’t sell; he had no job; he was always broke; he was at odds with a world that had victimised him. After my mother died, the courts ruled I was to live with my aunt. My father didn’t keep in touch. With my mother’s death, and with my disappearance from his life, and with his mother’s death shortly thereafter – he was free to become someone new. To take control, he created an alter-ego, in order to redefine the past. A pathological obsession with control – this is what defines transgenderism.

Anyway. I could go on for days, but this post is getting long. Glinner, if you’re reading this – I had been intending to message you at some point with a satirical song I’ve written about this whole transgender issue that will be released soon. It covers many of the issues you’re concerned with. So when I saw you post on twitter, I thought – there’s my opportunity! I’d love to share the song with you before it gets released – here’s my email: – [email protected]

Thanks for reading.

Howzaboutye · 26/02/2019 23:35

Everyone else's answers are my answer too, to your OP question.

However, you asking the question has quite shocked me. Why?

Well I'm so damn well used to being mansplained to, or having my opinions and thoughts dismissed, discounted.

Please do keep on with what ever stuff in the public eye you are doing.

We need FACTS out there in the clear light of day.

I am genuinely worried about the world I have brought my daughter into.

MissElleAny · 26/02/2019 23:38

My experience of trans issues is admittedly small and, up until recently, was 100% positive - very "live and let live". I didn't think I'd have a problem with sharing toilets or calling trans women "women" or anything like that. I certainly didn't think that "adult human female" would become some sort of term of abuse and that reliable, provable, written-in-stone biological facts would somehow become as lightweight and ephemeral as the air. I'll admit that I'd been naive and hadn't thought it through. I hadn't realised that there was a battleground to be fought over.

The first that I knew of there being any sort of problem surrounding trans issues was seeing Twitter Moments on Graham Linehan and Robert Webb being referred to as "bigots" (can't remember who this happened to first) and thinking, "Hang on, really? But they seem like such nice chaps!" More of that later...

A few days later I found out that all sorts of women's rights were being given away to trans women without women even being consulted as to whether that was okay. On the very day that I found out who Karen White was, a strapping six-foot actor who I'd always admired retweeted and liked a tweet about trans women being allowed into the women-only ponds on Hampstead Heath. I suddenly realised, as a smaller-than-average five-feet-nothing woman, how vulnerable that made me. I realised that said actor, who'd lived with the benefits of white male privileges his entire life, would never have to deal with a trans woman (and all that implies) in the men-only pond - I would. I wondered whether he'd realised - if he'd even thought for one single second about - the implications of that tweet for women like me. Was he just picking up on a sense of an "oppressed minority" and his woolly liberal Spidey senses started tingling and he just unthinkingly retweeted? I found another tweet on the thread in which someone pointed out that the men had been outraged when the women had protested by entering the men-only pond. Possibly they were trans men - after all, you only have to say "I am a man" and click your ruby-slippered heels together three times like Judy Garland in The Wizard of Oz to be a man, right? On reading such hypocrisy, and blatant regard for women's safety and welfare, I could feel my blood starting to boil. That was the beginning of my interest in trans issues.

Anyway, at that point I went back and investigated what Linehan and Webb had said and what the furore was, and it turns out that they are nice chaps - they're just determined to stick up for women. I know, right? What bastards! Hmm

Along with this I found out what was being said about them and other men who stuck for women, and about women who stuck up for themselves. I discovered that becoming a woman could simply be a matter of saying "I am a woman"; that most trans people haven't had surgery to transition, as I'd always supposed; that lesbians who don't want to suck dicks are "bigots"; that I, myself, am a "TERF" (to anyone who uses that repulsive term, I offer the biggest of FUCK YOUs. It's like the N-word of trans issues. How fucking dare you?).

I feel that all or most of these issues could have been avoided with a little more consideration and understanding of the issues surrounding life as a woman; if we had been consulted and listened to rather than people just riding roughshod over our hard-won rights, assuming that it would be okay to take everything away from us in an instant; if trans men and women had their own spaces and rights. I acknowledge that they're a vulnerable group, and they have all my sympathy - but as such I also would expect them to realise how vulnerable women are and why it is simply not right to take the benefits accorded to another vulnerable group with no apparent consideration.

I hope some common ground can be found between these divided groups soon, as I truly don't believe that one should be the enemy of the other, as seems to be the case at the moment. However, it's also only too obvious that neither side will back down any time soon.

Luckystar777 · 26/02/2019 23:41

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theOtherPamAyres · 26/02/2019 23:51

A rash of male colleagues began to transition in 2006. I knew one of them well. He was my boss and nearing retirement.

He had worked his way through the ranks by sharp elbows, masonic connections and a stay-at-home wife who had brought up their chidren single-handedly, virtually. He had not only shown zero interest in the issues that affected female subordinates, but constantly bemoaned the fact that women were a bloody nuisance: they kept having pregnancies, miscarriages and sick children.

There was no way that a man that I worked alongside for years, and observed at close quarters, had been born in the wrong body and always been a woman.

The organisation, however, was delighted to have a senior woman manager to balance out all the men that sat at the high table.

ApplesinmyPocket · 26/02/2019 23:51

A long time ago on MN was a poster named Dittany who was pretty frank in her stated belief that men could not become women, that people could not change sex, that gender was a load of bull. I thought she was harsh.

But it awakened me to looking around - realising people were being sold a load of shit on this issue - that pernicious little phrase 'born in the wrong body' got picked up and people began to trot it out like it meant something - instead of telling it like it really is - people's bodies are not wrong - how could they be? your body is your body - but some peoples minds have difficulty accepting it - a mind problem, NOT a body problem.

So many peak-trans moments but for me the final straw was when, having taken many inches from all of us who wanted to be kind, to be accepting, 'trans woman' was insisted upon. That little space between the two words. It seems so harmless on the face of it. It was anything but harmless - a cunning, calculating move paving the way for today's nonsense parrotted over and over "you get black women and tall women and trans women. All of them women."

I have a pale, shadowy horse in this race - that of having spent 2 years between 10-12 as a gender non-conforming child, who truly believed they should have been a boy. If anyone had said 'take this pill and you can be one' I'd have taken it in an instant. No such pills or clinics or furore in those days. The phase went away without fuss. I am now a perfectly average womanly woman. Of course I am. I was born one and I was destined to stay one from the moment of conception. Humans can't and don't change sex, but maybe, just maybe we can start again, demolish gender stereotyping, and this dangerous cult will not be needed any more.

I thank all the brave women, and their male allies, who are fighting with such courage to make it so.