Help a brother out

[Glinner]

Hello, you coven of squints far right Nazi witches!

I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology and activism. I've also asked on Twitter but thought this might be good for longer answers.

Please tell me your stories!

Neotrash, that graphic is insane!
Mr Pan, so sorry you are going through that at work, that's terrible.

Rachel McKinnon stealing an award from female cyclists and forcing one of the other competitors to apologise for being pissed off about it!

Oh, and the comment 'Well, we know now that there are at least 76 genders' from DS, which I assumed was a joke and wasn't.

(I asked him which one I was, then, and he made it quite clear that old people like parents were jolly well supposed to stay in their ParentGender box and neverever mention anything embarrassing.)

Thanks for stopping by and asking, and for all that you do.

For me it was a conversation with a male gay friend after meeting someone for the first time who is non binary and active in a radical pride movement.

I desperately wanted to get my head around their position but found it more and more challenging when they present themselves in provocatively, sexual female dress but demands that they are treated otherwise. I asked my friend's advice. It turns out that he was equally confused by the demands gender overruling sex, and sexual attraction. It wasn't just me, as a straight woman who was confused. I've read and thought a lot since.

As a childless woman I can no more understand what it is to give birth or raise a child than someone without a womb can understand the ever changing body us females live with. From week to week, month to month peaks and troughs in mood, desire, energy to pain. Let alone year to year changes as periods arrive , and then your body screams at you to procreate and then starts telling you it soon won't be able to.

I work with marginalised people, with mums and carers. Every day I see difference and the need for protected characteristics. Not for a second do I wish to claim someone else's status and lived experience. Nor do I believe anyone has the right to claim mine.

My other issue with that graphic is that it's a nod to how autism has been presented in the past as a linear spectrum, which is also too rigid and stereotypical and in this way damaging to both how people with autism are viewed or perhaps missed.

And of course the way a high percentage of children referred to gender services have autism. This really isn't a coincidence and they are so vulnerable to pressure and influence from online sources.

I couldn’t believe that the current trans ideology now meant that for a man to “become” a woman, they just had to say they felt like one. So, could still have a fully functional penis, no gender dysphoria as such. The only reason I discovered this was because of the furore around trans girls in the brownies and guides. My DD was in the guides and the idea of her sharing dorm accommodation with a male - and me as parent having no right to know just seemed utterly unbelievable.
I always thought of myself as a compassionate liberal. Before it was remotely acceptable I attended gay rights marches (in the 80s), always had the view that someone with gender dysphoria who wanted to live as the opposite sex had every right to do so without being subject to abuse or violence. I would use relevant pronouns, and in every way treat a person as though they were that sex. But in my mind there was never any concept of eg a trans woman actually BEING a woman, as is the very loud claim now..
That mantra to me is simultaneously ridiculous and very scary, the triumph of ideology over objective reality. To be labelled transphobic for describing a reality is deeply misogynistic to me, bullying and a frightening cultural shift.

I first realised something was wrong when I read an article in the Guardian about an athlete named Lauren Jeska who had attempted to murder a UK athletics official. The story just made no sense until I read the story in the Daily Mail where it was explained that Jeska was transgender and had attempted to murder the offical because he was investigating her eligibility to compete as a woman.
I have always been a tree hugging lefty, and it came as a huge shock that a newspaper I had always trusted to be truthfu, did not mention really important facts about biological sex when reporting a story. Without those facts, the story made no sense and became a lie.
That really opened my eyes to what I feel is a movement to empower a small group of men at the expense of women. Once you've seen the misogyny, you can't unsee it.

I had always been gender critical as a feminist in that I reject gender stereotypes. Lots of things over the last few years have registered but not tipped me over the edge. No platforming of Germaine Greer really made me question things, being described as cis etc. I had always thought the feminism boards here were a bit extreme and generally had a live and let live manta.

What peak transed me completely was receiving a work policy describing pregnant people and expectant parents. It had completely erased women from the document. I realised how convenient it would be for my employer to erase women in policy in the name of inclusion. Their shameful 23% “gender” pay gap would disappear. Sexual harassment? What sexual harassment we are all just people. I realised that by not questioning this document I was accepting it and essentially complicit. I returned it questioning why it had rejected the Equality Act 2010 definition of pregnancy - pregnant women as a protected characteristic. I also pointed out that as I was using this document to write risk assessments for pregnant women in a laboratory setting it would be useful if it used descriptions (ie pregnant woman) consistent with RCOG guidelines.

As a biologist I find the denial of science very scary. As an academic I find the closing down of debate worrying.

As someone who has had traumatic pregnancies, births and miscarriages I find being written out of pregnancy insulting. After my first miscarriage (which began in a public loo) didn’t resolve itself I had surgery to remove my desperately wanted baby. I lost more blood than I should have during the surgery and was unwell. Driving me home my husband just said “I’m sorry that it has to be you”. If he could have been pregnant instead of me he would, but he couldn’t because he is a man and I am a WOMAN. Not because of how we identify but because we are.

Needless to say mumsnet and Twitter have helped to open my eyets and I am now well and truly down the rabbit hole.

Maria McLachlan. I was a full-on TWAW person who pretty much ignored the feminist board until a vague sense of unease about Jenner’s ‘Woman of the Year’ award gave an opening for Maria’s assault to filter into my consciousness and get me to start looking at this issue. Then I started reading more and started thinking more about how my female socialisation had prevented my examining cold, hard facts and trying too hard to be ‘nice.’ Sorry you got thumped Maria, but you did women a great service by ‘ahem’ not taking it on the chin.

Yes, the reporting of the Jeska case was shocking - presented as "woman unaccountably stabs a load of blokes for no reason whatsoever" - turned out to be "transwoman stabs a load of sports officials when they tried to collect blood tests for hormone levels." One of the victims, Ralph Knibbs, had been a brilliant rugby player as a young man, and was so principled he turned his back on an international career rather than tour Apartheid South Africa. The contrast between the two... I still feel gobsmacked to this day.

And to see the Guardian and BBC doing their "nothing to see here, move along, move along now" act over it. That's one of the things I feel most gutted about. I'm a lefty. I want to feel I can trust those parts of the press that share my values on political and social issues, that care about the poor and underprivileged, about inequality. But I can no longer trust the buggers to tell the truth (or at least not lie by omission).

Oh, and this bit of disingenuous reporting from the Grauniad, which only included the actual offences in a revised article after a certain amount of outcry. Poor dear soul, how very unfair to be put in men's jail after targeting teenage girls and committing very male offences in their bedrooms.

When Bruce became Caitlyn and won 'woman of the year' I realised something was a bit off, but it seemed like something that didn't really affect me. Then I became aware of the 'trans kids' phenomenon, first via the Louis Theroux programme, then the BBC programme 'Trans Kids - who knows best?' a couple of years ago. The testimony of the young detransitioned transman at the end was heartbreaking.

I thought I was alone in thinking that transitioning children was wrong - the media all seemed so on-board with the brave and stunning narrative, and children becoming their true selves via medication and mutilation. Then someone on another forum mentioned that the 'hardcore feminists' on Mumsnet took a different view, so I came on here to find them, having self-radicalised.

Good god.
Threads like this are enough to convince people we've taken such a wrong turn somewhere.
Post after post of completely lovely people saying I tried, I really did, I don't hate people and I went along with this for quite some time but this is such a huge, nasty, horrible lie that I just can't say it any more. And it's hurting women and girls so obviously. And it's even hurting those who believe it, or say they do.

MNHQ are certainly overzealous with the deletions but they do provide an anonymous and public forum for people to say exactly what they think and be judged accordingly. And to those who have eyes to see, the truth is plain.

Thank you jamrollypolly. I've yet to hear of anyone else it is actually happening to. Lots of threats yes. But formal procedures? No.

Near. Far away. Perspective.

Evening, Glinner, and thanks for starting this thread. I work in the HE sector and so have been aware of this for a few years. Was always of the opinion that people should be allowed to wear/call themselves whatever they wanted, so didn't really see the issues with shared spaces etc. Then, a few years back, there were a number of cases where criminals, including sex offenders, were claiming to be women and demanding to be in women's prisons. Google Davina Ayrton & Martin Ponting. So the first GC discussions I can remember is arguing with a (male) HR colleague in about 2016 that DA could not possibly be a woman just by virtue of putting on a dress but thinking that no one could possibly be really thinking that; surely they were being polite, as I was, in referring to trans colleagues by their preferred gender. Then C Jenner happened, and Pips Bunce, and the Labour AWS, and I thought OMG, this stuff is starting to get really out of hand.

Then about a year later, a friend got in touch from another HEI. She was under investigation for 'transphobia' and it was being suggested that her classes were 'unsafe' for trans students. Her 'crime'? She had tweeted a follower of LOJ and asked not to be called 'cis'. As a result, the complainants were trying to get her sacked. She was a senior researcher, specialist in her field, and had over 30 years' experience, and these little bastards were trying to see her out of a job. I peaked so fast you couldn't see me for dust.....and then once you see one bit of it, you see it all: Mermaids, the lesbophobia, the pushing of boundaries, the male behaviour, the experimentation on children, women's sports, the Guides, the whole shebang.

I have since then adopted a GC stance on another messageboard and been one of a few voices on there alerting people to what's going on. I have talked to friends about this, especially those with daughters. I visited my MP during the GRA consultation to discuss the safety of women and girls and got a sympathetic hearing but have seen no formal statements as yet. I am politically homeless at present and am watching for the first political party to row back from this....I accept I may be waiting a long time, though. Until that point I'll carry on doing what I'm doing. I am on Twitter and follow you and other GC accounts on there, though fly quite low beneath the radar compared to braver voices.

Mr Pam, is there any way that M N can help? Sorry not to know but CJS is...

I'm also a "kind hearted live-and-let-live liberal thinker" who has done some more thinking and reading.

In the 80's I experienced some mildly uncomfortable behaviour from someone, who although I didn't know it at the time, was a prolific child abuser. I kept quiet out of embarrassment and shame.

I'm not keeping quiet this time round.

Turns out I have always been a radical feminism, I just didn't realise it.
I've browsed the feminist boards on MN as I am always interested in women's issues. But the thing that really tipped me into disbelief was the Guides. DD is a Guide and despite my initial misgivings about the rather 'exclusive' nature of it, realised quickly how important an all female space is, especially for young woman. The Guides (still) does amazing work for kids. Then came the dawning realisation that that space actually wasn't as safe as it should be and that such a bastion of female empowerment was centering males filled me with dismay. Plus their betrayal of GNC girls.

I feel very very let down by many of the big institutions I trusted - Guides, the Labour party, the Guardian, NSPCC, and so on..
The #nodebate made me furious. How dare these sweeping and harmful changes be brought in and any question or dissent be met with #no debate. Bigot. T**f.
The more I found out, the more worried (and annoyed) I have become.
Plus, as a woman and a parent, I've seen for myself how GNC kids grow up and resolve their identity issues and almost always find a happy and accepting life. I can see how little kids experiment and role play as they work life out. My DD was going to marry her best friend when she was 6, she's 12 now and has gone off that idea. Was she gay at 6? Is she bisexual now, or pan, or genderqueer? Or is she actually a pretty average kid sussing stuff out as she goes along. I don't want to label her and I don't want anyone else to either.

Criminal Justice System. Ironically.

No it isn't an MN problem, thanks.

People's stories are really illuminating.

Hello

Thanks for asking!

Well, let me set the scene. I've been around and involved on the LGBT scene for a long time. My best friend came out as gay to me at 16 and I helped him through it all. We went out on the gay scene together and I had lots of gay, lesbian and trans friends from being very young. I instinctively was pro trans because of this.

Over the last few years I've picked up increasingly worrying signs from the trans side and recently was "peaked" over Mermaids etc and generally the vitriol from TRA's.

I have always been a massive supporter of "gender bending"!! And I still am! But this has completely been twisted by the recent TRA narrative. Whenever you see parents of kids explaining why a boy or girl is trans, it 100% sounds exactly like how me and my friends were when we were younger. We embraced our gender variances and luckily weren't brainwashed into thinking that meant we actual WERE the opposite sex.

As a result I've done a LOT of research, finding GC feminism again has been amazing.

I really am disgusted that there are plans to teach 5 years olds about trans ideology. My child is nearly 5 and is in no way mature enough to get what all this means. She wants to be a fairy, that doesn't mean I need to start contacting doctors to give her wings! Sorry for the daft analogy but really, trans-kids ideology is daft (and dangerous!)

When I was growing up there was an emphasis on changing the world around us to accept us AS WE ARE. TRA ideology is about changing your body because you DON'T ACCEPT WHO YOU ARE. It plays into massive stereotypes that I'm amazed still persist in the UK etc. It is a massive back step.

The push to remove sex based rights for women is absolutely disgusting. It's just quite unbelievable really. It's really opened up my eyes to how misogynistic a lot of men still are. And how many women seem to be under the grip of a weird kind of Stockholm syndrome.

It's utter madness to have people who have lived as men, with men's bodies speaking for women in politics too.

Trans people have worth in themselves, they should not try to redefine what a woman is. They should be given a platform as equal partners to gay, straight, etc etc people. Without erasing other types of people.

I'm out of Labour because of their stance now. Trans women should not be women's officers etc. Create a new role, Trans women's officer by all means. It's clear that the trans women that have been popping up I politics do not have women's rights as their number one priority.

The average woman has been pro trans for decades but the tide is turning now. It makes me so sad that things have come to this.

When I read elsewhere on MN (about a year ago) that Girl Guides were letting male bodied guides share tents with girls without knowledge or consent of the girls or their parents.

This too. Madness.

I could have refined all that, but it's been a long day and I don't have the energy so I hope it all makes sense.

It was the trivial stuff that first irritated me and made me start to pay closer attention. The number of articles springing up which assumed that I’d be excited and grateful to be told how to do “womaning” by a transwoman half my age. The fact that Glee couldn’t allow a gender non-conforming female character to stay as a gender non-conforming female- they had to trans her. And then I saw a few examples of TRAs absolutely piling in and annihilating people for expressing even mildly GC views. And you all know, once you’ve seen, you can’t unsee, and you see more and more and then you peak.

For me, not being able to trust the Guardian's reporting any longer has been very painful. Yes, of course, newspapers have certain editorial lines. But they should be committed to reporting the truth. The Jeska case is a very good example for why the truth on sex sometimes really matters.

Oh also Jenner winning Woman of the Year and the Labour party electing a boy to do a woman's job - WTAF!!! 😡😡😡😡

For me it was when I got an email from Girl Guides, I have two daughters who are members, I was a bit confused at first so did some research and fell down a rabbit hole!

I was so shocked at some of the things that were being stated as fact when science proves otherwise.

I've since learned that lots of people really don't care or have no interest, but a few are willing to stand up and say what everyone else is thinking.