R4 Today about the Tavistock report/resignation

[Cwenthryth]

On now

So just adult then female
Are we not adults but have as females to travel with adults
How does that work

2016 Vice interview with Dr Polly Carmichael:
'Meeting the Doctor Who Runs the Only NHS Clinic for Trans Children
Dr Polly Carmichael helps children as young as three experiencing gender dysphoria, so has naturally become a tabloid punching bag.'
(extract)
VICE: Hi Polly. Your clinic is under a lot of scrutiny at the moment. You've been accused of "messing with God" by offering hormone blockers to young children – is that a new thing, or is it just that people have more awareness of these issues now?
Dr Polly Carmichael: Hormone treatment was around in the 1980s. It's been available in Holland and over here for many, many years. At that stage, it was available at the end of puberty – so not before the age of 16.

So why are blockers being used on kids under the age of 16 now?
We started introducing the blocker in the early stages of puberty here in 2011. There was a lot of pressure coming from certain group to introduce it – families were travelling abroad because they knew it was available in Holland and America. As a service, we didn't have the evidence one way or the other, so the best way to do it was as part of a research study.

The idea is that if you intervene in that early stage, you won't have experiences of secondary sex characteristics, such as breasts or [the] Adam's apple. So If the young person decides that this is the pathway they wish to follow, they won't later on be having to undertake procedures like top surgery." (continues)

www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/exkb4m/meeting-the-doctor-who-runs-the-only-nhs-clinic-for-trans-children

Groups being GIRES & Mermaids?

Wow! How did that research get past the the ethics committee?

It’s a longtime since I was involved with any research, are submissions to local or national research and ethics committees publically available?

twitter.com/BBCTomFeilden/status/1099790049468731392

I am assuming Gina Rippon (no gendered brains) got bumped from Today? We had Tavistock, intro of sex education and lots of Olivia Coleman, but couldn't find anything.

There was a lot of pressure coming from certain group to introduce it – families were travelling abroad because they knew it was available in Holland and America. As a service, we didn't have the evidence one way or the other, so the best way to do it was as part of a research study.

This is a very odd line to take. There is no evidence one way or the other of the efficacy or appropriateness of treatment. Parents who have enough money to do so will take their children abroad for the treatment. The NHS decides to give in to the pressure and offer the treatment, despite the lack of evidence.

Is this how the NHS usually decides which treatments to offer? Do they normally decide based on how much pressure there is from patients or their parents rather than on the evidence?

I wonder if ARC in Cambridge are looking into this issue as it affects autistic young people. I hope so. The overlap between HFA and GID is so significant and I find it hard to believe autistic teenagers are being properly served by current services.

Gina Rippon also has researched autism.

parentingsciencegang.org.uk/web-chats/how-different-are-womens-and-mens-brains/

Baron Cohen was the driver behind the "extreme male brain" theory in autism, which I think is largely debunked now.

I'd love to hear this conversation!

She's on tomorrow! Too much news today

twitter.com/ginarippon1/status/1099956728748277760?s=20

He was supposed to be on Today with Gina Rippon.

Oh good

Is this how the NHS usually decides which treatments to offer? Do they normally decide based on how much pressure there is from patients or their parents rather than on the evidence?

It's interesting when you compare how much pressure the clinicians involved in the recent cases of the terminally ill babies withstood. Even going to court to defend their decision to do no harm in the face of huge (misguided in my opinion) public outcry.

just heard something about trans women and women on PM with Evan Davis. Couldn't hear what it was in relation to.

Sport. Coming up on R4 soon.

I think the issue may be that in the UK the parents/lobby groups are backed up by some 'medical professionals' from US, Australia etc with WPATH representing both TRAs and some medical practitioners.

Parents and patients are being enabled to take on NHS GIDS service because of the ambiguous nature of their pathways and protocols.

cf growinguptransgender.com/2019/02/13/offensive-dated-harmful-2019-research-from-gids/

Ali1ce you can search via this link below for UK REC-approved research project summaries. This the type of REC that researchers need to go to where their research study involves recruitment via the NHS of patients, or of NHS staff.

Other kinds of research have different REC set ups, but I’d assume that this research work mentioned is likely to have been based at the English NHS GIDS.

www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-improving-research/application-summaries/research-summaries/

Looks to me that you can see everything that has been submitted to a REC including the proposals that didn’t get REC approval (just filter for ‘unfavourable opinion’).

Encouraging headline on bbc

NHS child gender reassignment 'too quick' www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47359692

Thanks for the link. Huge change of tone from BBC towards reality.

These two interviewees really acknowledges how pressure groups have been trying to dictate NHS care. The ‘pro-trans lobby groups’ referred to (..and we all know who those are..) are clearly uninterested in the best interests of children. its all about building as big as possible cohort of people who will support their political cause. It is absolutely scandalous. Such a relief to see this start to be recognised more widely.

There was a brief extract fom tonight's Panorama on R4, its going to be significant.

Professor from Oxford's centre for evidenced based medicine said the quality of existing evidence is terrible and informed consent not possible.
He is 'alarmed' by quality of international research.

Sounds like some properly neutral investigation is going on - thank god, not before time. Curious to see what the reaction from the mermaids/gires end will be. There can be nothing wrong with scrutiny of these services but I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s not how they see it.

BBC story on teaching menstruation health in schools (currently advertised below the Tavi one linked above) uses the words women and girls throughout.

Feels like the tide has actually turned now (not getting complacent though!)

Feels like the tide has actually turned now (not getting complacent though!)

Every so often I realise it has been rather peaceful without Fanny Haddock throwing in his two penn'orth opinions. He's going to come back from his media retreat in NZ to find quite a different atmosphere.

This is why I find the concept of "passing" sinister. It skews the goal of treatment to be a cosmetic outcome in which a successful outcome is producing a modified version of a person who cannot be identified as their birth sex.
Absolutely. And who is unable to function sexually, and who has developed coping mechanisms around how they look, and who has practiced lying to or concealing from their family, and who is isolated and massively vulnerable. But who "passes". Childhood chemical transition, including GnRH agonists, is solely for the aesthetic result. There's no psychological benefit to affirm affirm affirm, especially if other MH issues are ignored as a result. It's almost like it was designed to churn out vulnerable damaged paedo-fodder.

The sheer inadequacy of that, set against what we're told is sustained and severe mental anguish, is breathtaking.
Because passing is so rare. It's unachievable for many. I don't know how it can ever be achieved. Say facial feminisation surgery (ironically FFS) - if it became commonplace humans would develop other ways to determine what sex a stranger was, the same way we can see someone in trousers with short hair and not assume it's a man. Women especially. Because our safety relies on being able to tell.

This makes me think of the Philip Larkin poem "This be the verse", as there are going to be some seriously angry adults with their parents when they get to adulthood and are without fertility or choice. They are taking their choices away.