Martina speaks out!

[PimmsnLemonade]

I'm so pleased to see this. I've been a big fan of Martina since I was a kid and this just makes her go up even higher in my estimation:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/martina-navratilova-blasts-cheating-transgender-women-in-sport-8fmjbnh99

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rules-on-trans-athletes-reward-cheats-and-punish-the-innocent-klsrq6h3

She has tweeted that she still plays tennis so not a 'former' tennis player

The Guardian: former northern liberal non-conformist newspaper.

My northern, liberal non-conformist parents gave up on it in about 1970.

Any bets on how long before it's simply 'former newspaper'?

Another headline could have been: "Women rally to support of Navratilova's comments on unfairness in sport" or "Feminist groups express gratitude to Navratilova for speaking out".

Or perhaps: "The usual handful of whiny men lash out at one of the world's greatest tennis players because they can't handle the truth."

That's my preferred one, thinking about it.

Watched her play a veterans match at Wimbledon 18months ago. She was fab & played up to the crowd who loved her.

If the playing field is levelled by a reduction in testosterone (as RM asserts) and by this alone then why is there a dearth of headlines reporting transmen winning in male sporting competitions?

Surely if the logic is followed there ought to be transmen for whom taking CSH's and having testosterone at male levels that allows them to compete successfully in this category?

Statement from Fairplay for Women

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1097417280084951040?s=19

1. Yesterday pm our spokeswoman @asknic was booked onto @bbc5live @StephenNolan late news show to discuss @Martina Navratilova's comments about trans participation in female sport. We were then disinvited after Rachel McKinnon publicly refused to participate if we were included.

2. We discussed this decision with editor @philoholland explaining how this is a frequently used tactic to silencing opposing views. It contravenes BBC editorial guidelines to allow a guest to veto the appearance of another.

3. We were assured that @StephenNolan was an experienced and tough interview and he would act as the challenging opposing voice. We were not satisfied with this and was offered a right to reply in a slot after midnight or in next Sunday's show. The interview went ahead without us.

4. Topic introduced by Nolan with 'Martina's comment described as upsetting, disturbing and deeply transphobic'. No reference to the support she has also received. No reference that FPFW was disinvited to speak. Listen here.

(They then go on to address some of thee questions McKinnon was asked.)

Sharron Davies is on Radio 2 now, taking down an idiot who thinks that women should just try harder and then they would be able to compete against women

It's a segment on Caster Semenya but it's gone wider into men and women's sports - worth a listen

I don’t have much to add to this discussion, I just want to express my admiration and gratitude to Martina. A legend in her sport and a brave, intelligent and disobedient woman

Need to know, as I see the term here often: what does "peak" mean?

I have a feeling that so many more people are going to be peak transed over this.

I’ve not read the whole thread so apologies if someone else has said this but if there is no biological advantage to having a male body, why doesn’t RM compete against men? Surely that would be more of an achievement. Or why doesn’t RM campaign to remove categories of sports altogether and everyone competes against everyone and see where she ranks then?

ErroltheDragon
Can you think of any other specific examples where that could actually work, though?^
I think it was more about different sports governing bodies having the right to determine their own rules not globally banning or permitting transgender or intersex athletes - like the US Powerlifting authority saying they would not allow transgender people at all whereas jockeys can be men, women or transgender. Or having mixed football teams at amateur but not professional level. But unlike andyoldlabour I have no specialist knowledge at all so this is just my opinion.

arunadasi

It's from the concept of 'peak oil', the point of maximum oil production after which less oil is extracted/produced.

nettie434

There is so much confusion about which sports organisations allow what.
There could be conflict between the IOC (International Olympic Committee) and individual organisations.
I tried to speak with British Cycling about this months ago, but they just refused to say anything, except to ask me if I knew the IOC rules - they are going to allow transgender athletes to compete.
It is a complete mess.
Back in 2016, there was an article in the Mail on Sunday which alleged that two British transgender athletes could compete at the upcoming Rio Olympics, but then we wouldn't know unless it was obvious, because the authorities were not going to release their names or any details.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671937/Transgender-British-athletes-born-men-set-make-Olympic-history-competing-games-women.html

I had a really bizarre idea to get the public fully on board with this.
You need a retired elite male athlete around 40 eg, Chris Hoy or Wiggo, then get them to ID as women and enter a top event competing against the women.
They could top the qualifying round and then drop out before the knock out rounds - unless of course they got a taste for winning again
Hopefully there would be such an outcry that it would show how ridiculous this whole thing is.

Thanks for the link to the recording of the Radio BBC 5 programme, which I have listened to.

I can't find reference to it on BBC Radio 5 website - can someone tell me what the programme is called and when it was broadcast?

These details are needed in order to complain the the BBC.

How dare a BBC Interviewer ask 2 guests if another BBC interviewer should be sacked and not pose any questions or challenges whatsoever?

If I was Martina I would tell the BBC to stuff it up their neo-vaginas and I would go to a commercial station for more money!

Hahaha I am being urged to drink Absolut Vodka in support of a Stonewall campaign on the ads on this MN page.

Well, Stonewall can stuff that up their ....vodka drinking orifice too.

I have never discriminated against anyone of any version of LBGT and never would, but Stonewall and Absolut can whistle, given Stonewall's attitude to women and lesbians.

HotpotLawyer

it's the Stephen Nolan Show on BBC 5 Live

It was broadcast on 17/02/2019

I left the time section blank as I didn't know it.

2 hours 23 into the programme

Article I referred to before

Notable excerpts:

Vilain told me that the NCAA’s rules were also aimed at inclusivity and that the governing body aims to give everyone the chance to compete..... He said that the entire concept of anatomical equality for transgender athletes was simply not feasible, and thus, it was not a stated goal of the NCAA’s rules.

The purpose of the NCAA’s rules is to, in a sense, shift the transgender female athlete’s muscle mass and physiology away from that of the average male. The goal is to create a pathway to include the transgender athlete, not create total equality.

And from the cheat:

Here arguing against testosterone levels:

This study showed there is absolutely no relationship between testosterone in terms of performance in males. The relationship they found in women was weak and sporadic.

There is no evidence that having a higher produced value of endogenous testosterone has any performance advantages at all. The evidence does not bear that out. So that is the second myth: the more testosterone you have, naturally, the better you are. So trans women might be male early on, and that on average such bodies have more endogenous naturally testosterone, therefore they’re stronger because of that. We have evidence that is just not the case.

I don't know whether this is true regarding testosterone. I suspect McK is interpreting data in their own special way, but it does show that they are trying to argue against testosterone as being an advantage. The problem is that when an authority has introduced these limits they have implied that it is to make it 'fair' when in reality it is no such thing. But it then makes their position look weak when people start picking apart the basis for a certain level of testosterone for example.

Of course McK then goes full on batshit and argues that being trans is just a natural advantage like being tall is:

If you look at elite athletics, every single elite athlete has some kind of genetic mutation that makes them amazing at their sport....The question is not whether there is a competitive advantage, the question is whether there is an unfair advantage. .... Just because there is a competitive advantage doesn’t make it unfair.

Is being trans just another natural physical characteristic that, if — and this is a gigantic “if” — it provides an advantage, should we treat it like just being tall? ..... Is being trans just another way to be a natural person who maybe gets an avenge[sic] for it that we should treat like being tall?

You need a retired elite male athlete around 40 eg, Chris Hoy or Wiggo, then get them to ID as women and enter a top event competing against the women

I know you're thinking about the well-known person angle, in order to grab public attention. But IMO one of the travesties of the "ID as a woman, get to compete against women" policy is that fairly mediocre men can beat elite women (or at least run them pretty close)

Having Sharron Davies enter the debate is excellent, she fought for years for results to be changed due to athletes doping. She knew she was at a disadvantage as a clean athlete when competing and has no truck with cheats.

unsurprisingly, Paris Lees is tweeting support for trans women competing against natural women (or just WOMEN ffs), so even though Paris likes to walk the moderate (I'm not a shouty TRA) line on Twitter, they mostly believe the same old shizzle. I still can't fathom McKinnon describing themselves as "a biological woman" jaw droppingly odd.

yes, thank you Sharron Davies. We need other elite women in sport to fight against this utter laughable nonsense of trans women competing against women.

IW also claims they are a biological woman, when someone asked her what would happen if she stoped taking the hormones she responded i would get osteporosis the same as other menopausal woman ,because as far as she is concerned once she had surgery and hormones her dna has changed and she is now a woman not a transwoman

Good grief. Just when I thought TRAs had plumbed the depths of stupidity (yes, I am looking at you, Madigan) I come across the likes of McKinnon and Willoughby claiming to be biological women.

it's so barmy as to be laughable.
If you had or have a penis or a Y chromosome, you are not and never have been a biological woman. The end.