Martina speaks out!

[PimmsnLemonade]

I'm so pleased to see this. I've been a big fan of Martina since I was a kid and this just makes her go up even higher in my estimation:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/martina-navratilova-blasts-cheating-transgender-women-in-sport-8fmjbnh99

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rules-on-trans-athletes-reward-cheats-and-punish-the-innocent-klsrq6h3

Knicknack - that's really interesting about archery.
The other thing that annoys me about the sport issue is how recent women's sport actually is. Women have only been able to run marathons within my lifetime. In some countries they are just at the beginning and it's a massive political hot potato. And mckinnon claims to be an expert, gets on radio and in the paper trying to sound all reasonable but actually argues for tw to compete with no hormone treatment. That's called mixed sex sport.

suggesting that there could be more flexibility in some sports while still being fair.

Can you think of any other specific examples where that could actually work, though?

Anyway, no one is suggesting transwomen should be banned from sports - they should most certainly be allowed to compete against males. If their treatment has impaired their performance- well, that's a shame but it's not fair to expect women to be disadvantaged in the name of 'inclusion' of people from the opposite sex category.

In the case of school sports, my understanding is that often the transgirls have - quite rightly - not yet had any cross sex hormones or surgery.

If McKinnon’s vision became the norm, McKinnon would no doubt shortly find Mckinnonself being completed outclassed by another biological Male. Perhaps one who never receives any medical intervention, and who chooses to desist at the end of ‘her’ competitive career....

My hunch of why MN made the distinction she did between transgender people and transsexuals is because of her own personal history with Renee Richards. RR became her coach and reportedly, they have been friends for many years. I imagine she was trying to spare RR from her public crticism.

That said, I imagine she'll get to the exact same place many of us have with time. No amount of medical or surgical modification can make a biologic male a female, and encouraging such "treatments" for a mental health and identity disorder is barbaric.

The fact that Martina has come out with such a strong position makes me hope she knows she has the support of other senior sport bods. I really hope she's had conversations with others and they get it are willing to step forward to support her if she gets a lot of flack (Eg efforts to stop the BBC employing her). I hope there are more.

I really want to thank Martina for doing this. And the fact she has published in the UK is testimony to the huge efforts that many women (and times joualists) have made to make the discussion happen here despite #nodebate.

Skeet shooting used to be mixed sex, until a woman won gold in the Barcelona Olympics - so not exactly that far back in time. I was watching the single sex shooting and wondering what physical strength is needed to pull a trigger, and google helpfully told me this. After a woman won gold, skeet shooting became men only - no separate women's event was created at the next olympics so she couldn't even defend her title.

As I've never held a gun in my life, I can't really tell whether shooting could be mixed sex, but I can't see any obvious reason why it couldn't be, along with equestrian events and darts. The only issue seems to be that men don't like losing to women....

Bloody hell.

Thanks for info on skeet shooting.

Given majority of sports are a test of strength, speed and agility. Should Male categories be reclassified as uni-gender male, trans male, trans female, etc with a seperate category for female at birth.

In a similar way to having disabled sports and various categories. But nothing to stop disabled athletes competing against able bodied.

She seems to feel that if you show yourself fully committed to transgenderism/transsexualism by having bits cut off, you're somehow proving genuine woman-ness and can compete.

It's not just her. That is effectively the IOC position in terms of testosterone level - it's nothing to do with making things fair as there is no evidence that it is fair. But in having a maximum testosterone level it acts as some form of gatekeeping.

Of course the issue with this now is that the likes of McKinnon are arguing against the higher testosterone level having a benefit. I don't know whether that is true or not, but it misses the point. It wasn't fair to start with, irrelevant of testerone. It is about inclusivity with a bit of gatekeeping to stop people taking the piss. But people are too scared to say this explicitly (there was an article with a bit about it in velonews I think).

Just to say: it was only Atlanta where there was no women's skeet and there is now. But yes - it only went separately sexed after a woman won! Bloody hell.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISSF_Olympic_skeet

But nothing to stop disabled athletes competing against able bodied.

Except if the aids which allow them to compete confer an advantage- there was debate over Pistorius, and wheelchair marathon racers don't compete against able bodied runners.

Thanks anyold & Olenna

I dare say a man moving into women's golf would have to make some adjustments to get used to hitting a shorter distance (sorry if hitting is the wrong terminology for golf). Nothing a bit of practice couldn't make up for though I expect.

They wouldn't need to make any adjustments Iused. Being able to hit further is still a massive advantage if playing off the women's tees. It makes your second shot much shorter, or allows you to use a different club (say an iron rather than a driver) which is more accurate.

They couldn't have made it more obvious if they'd tried really Lang!

I'm with Knickknack" 10:11

The more adjustments for "fairness" that are made the more people see a wedge to argue "special circumstances". Best stay simple. Men, women, it's not possible to change sex. Legal fictions remain a fiction and should be avoided for that reason alone.

Which still leaves me conflicted over the occasional outlier like Semenya.

how many transathletes before

The answer has to be the same for all the numbers games. One woman pushed off a podium or shortlist or endangered in a single sex space by a man is one too many. The press have been complicit in propagating mass delusion but the tide is turning and the more the public understand that their understanding of language is being hijacked the less tolerant they are going to be.

other athletes now need to step up too. I don’t say that lightly and I’m very careful what I say in public myself but I think it’s time. And I don’t just mean females either.

This is the absolute crux of the matter, it is time. Everyone needs to speak up. The intimidation and threats will continue as long as they are successful, it's a form of terrorism. The more people who stand up and acknowledge what the majority know the better.

MN is a smart woman and a world class strategist. Her use of the word cheat is absolute. We have been discussing unfairness and biology and trying to find ways to keeps women's sport for women whilst she has distilled it down to the one word that matters above all else in sport. Cheating is the worst thing you can do in professional sports, cheating is the one scandal that all sporting bodies will feel forced to answer to publicly, cheating is unacceptable.

That word should tip the balance.

On mckinnon saying 'i'm a biological woman' - I've seen it a few times

This is someone who is trying to pimp a book they wrote on fibbing, the amazon reviews are hilarious. My favourite is this one -
Complete Lunacy-can I give Zero Stars ?
There is simply no coming back from this level of delusion.

Remember there is no such thing as bad press in the world of marketing. McKinnon is all about self marketing and is making full use of the narcissist toolbox of creating drama at every possible opportunity (in case we stop going who?). Trump works from the same self proclaimed expert stance.

Bloody hell. I have just listened to the Radio 5 Live interview with RMcK from yesterday. The one where they allowed RMcK to bully the BBC into not including anyone to present the pro-Martina perspective.

Apart from one brief moment of comedy halfway through where RMcK has to correct themselves after misgendering people, it’s a complete fucking farce. No one challenges their pathetic arguments. Not one push back from the interviewer.

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Steve-Nolan-McK.m4a

I need to find the time to write and complain to BBC and Ofcom about this!

Women's sports are for the biological entity group of women. If a man chooses to alter his body for personal reasons that is wholly his prerogative, but losing strength/muscle doesn't mean that person should move down to the women's group - it is for women, not for weakened people.

This really strikes a chord with me.

I have had to say, quite often, that women are people, entities in their own right. Fully human, with their own reality. Unique and separate.

You can say it, but when you see how many people ignore it, it's incredibly frustrating.

The same argument is used for prisons. That a transwoman is vulnerable. Well so are old men, disabled men, men with learning difficulties, gay men.

They don't suddenly acquire the characteristics of women, on the basis of being weaker men.

It's incredible how many times the narrative flows in that direction.

Women simply aren't recognised.

Janice Turner tweeted:

"Hey @guardian, how about: “most successful female tennis player and greatest LGBT sportsperson of all time condemns unfair rules”? Why slur @martina’s brave defence of women’s sports?"

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1097258539645652992

And Martina responded:

"Fact is the responses I h e received here on Twitter have been by a large margin positive rather than negative. Which means the Guardian headline is quite inaccurate. Thank you".

The guardian also called martina. A former tennis player

Ffs

I know, former tennis player is what they reduced her to. Seriously, I love Martina about a billion times more than I did before, the shit she has had, and still has, to put up with.

Anyone else wonder whether McKinnon is doing all this to provide material for the follow up book?

From MN's wikipage, in case the Guardian is having a tough time with research.

Recognition

In 2005, Tennis magazine selected her as the greatest female tennis player for the years 1965 through 2005, directly over Steffi Graf.[85] Billie Jean King, a former World No. 1 player, said in 2006 that Navratilova is "the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player who's ever lived."[86] In 2008, tennis historian and journalist Bud Collins called Navratilova "arguably, the greatest player of all time."[87]

In 2006, Martina Navratilova was named by Equality Forum as one of their 31 Icons of the LGBT History Month.[88]

Tennis writer Steve Flink, in his book The Greatest Tennis Matches of the Twentieth Century (1999), named her as the second best female player of the 20th century, directly behind Steffi Graf.[89]

In June 2011, she was named one of the "30 Legends of Women's Tennis: Past, Present and Future" by Time.[90]

In March 2012, The Tennis Channel named Navratilova as the second greatest female tennis player of all times, behind Steffi Graf, in their list of 100 greatest tennis players of all times.[91]

On August 2, 2013, Navratilova was among the first class of inductees into the National Gay and Lesbian Sports Hall of Fame.[92]

On May 12, 2016, Navratilova was made an honorary fellow of Lucy Cavendish College of the University of Cambridge.[93]

KnickKnack - I stand corrected on archery (as an aside, I love how many knowledgeable women post on FWR)

IUsed2B - as whats said, it's a massive immediate advantage to be able to hit the ball further in golf. Not a lot of adjustment needed at all to tee off from the shorter distance tee boxes. We see this almost every time a man turns 65 and moves forward to the women / juniors / senior men tee boxes - their game suddenly improves

Because even when you know her career and have followed it, that page with it's huge list of outstanding achievements is still completely breath taking and far far to long to fit in a post here!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martina_Navratilova