Martina speaks out!

[PimmsnLemonade]

I'm so pleased to see this. I've been a big fan of Martina since I was a kid and this just makes her go up even higher in my estimation:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/martina-navratilova-blasts-cheating-transgender-women-in-sport-8fmjbnh99

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rules-on-trans-athletes-reward-cheats-and-punish-the-innocent-klsrq6h3

Loving the Guardian FB page. One of the responses was if TW have an advantage in sport why aren’t they winning left, right and centre?

This is sort of the same reasoning about dolphins not winning in competitive swimming events. Which means they must have no advantage in swimming over humans.

I am in a total mood to flounce, my female hormones allow it.

with equipment (lighter javelins, lower hurdles etc) that was better suited to our physiques to help avoid injury and allow us to perform at our best.

This made me think about golf, of which I know very little. But there is a lot of money and tv time in golf. Am I correct that women tee off from a shorter distance than men?
Are there any trans golf players? I can see it causing a major rumpus. Of course a trans man would put themselves at a significant disadvantage.

I think the best solution would be to have different rules in different sports. Physiological advantages are less important in equestrian events or horse racing. This is clearly not the case for boxing or weight lifting. When Martina beat Renée Richards, she was in her prime and Renée Richards was in her 40s. In elite athletics, the difference between gold and silver can be as tiny as 100th of a second so even residual physiologal advantages could make a difference.

Don't flounce Salt
I hate when I make typos, especially apostrophe ones as I can be judgemental and know others are too. On twitter I will delete my tweet and repost corrected if I notice the mistake. But I can also usually distinguish between autocorrect typos and the other sort and go with the flow of the message. No eye roll from me.

To paraphrase kiwifarms, those pictures of Mckinnon, Hubbard, and Ludwig beside the actual women they compete with are very useful. Even the wokest of wokesters can see at once the conflict here. Their brains must do a bit of a stagger - we can't help but interpret these people as the sex they are.

She seems to feel that if you show yourself fully committed to transgenderism/transsexualism by having bits cut off, you're somehow proving genuine woman-ness and can compete.

I agree MN is moving through the same phase of understanding the issues that many here have done.

The trouble is, no matter what modifications a man may choose to make to his body it does not make him a woman. A woman is not a man with breasts and genitals cut off, a woman is a specific biological entity and you either are or are not born one. There is no way to become one.

Women's sports are for the biological entity group of women. If a man chooses to alter his body for personal reasons that is wholly his prerogative, but losing strength/muscle doesn't mean that person should move down to the women's group - it is for women, not for weakened people. If a line is drawn as to at what point enough alterations have been made to a man's body that he should be allowed to call himself a woman, then you're saying that it's possible for a man to have a legal fiction of being a woman in certain circumstances. As we've seen, there are men who will then force those 'circumstances' from 'total SRS' to 'saying the magic words on a Tuesday'. And women are fucked.

Men cannot be women. It is not possible. No matter what the circumstances, no matter what the needs of the man, this is not a situation for 'inclusion'. Lying doesn't create new facts.

IUsed2B - yes, there are different tee boxes for men and women in golf.

Where I play there are two tee boxes: one for men between 15 and 65; the other is for juniors (under 15s), senior men (over 65s) and women.

Yes, you read that right: women - even fit, healthy, strong women in their 20s - can only be expected to compete fairly against kids and seniors. But obviously the designers of the course must have made a mistake, because you don't play golf with your genitals...

I think the best solution would be to have different rules in different sports. Physiological advantages are less important in equestrian events or horse racing.

If there are sports in which there isn't a bimodal distribution of results corresponding to sex, then there's no reason for them not to be mixed - providing that sexism doesn't preclude fully equal participation by women. Show jumping etc seems to have been fairly egalitarian (re sex - obviously it tends to be a sport of the privileged in other ways) but horse racing has been very sexist till quite recently AFAIK.

Are there any other sports in which men and women really could compete on a level playing field?

Iused2BanOptimist

"Am I correct that women tee off from a shorter distance than men?
Are there any trans golf players? I can see it causing a major rumpus."

Yes, shorter holes - tees moved forwards even at top championships.
Yes there are transwomen golfers and I found out yesterday that one of them has won (unsurprisingly) a long driving contest. Yet another "man" who has deprived a woman of a sporting accolade.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lana_Lawless

those pictures of Mckinnon, Hubbard, and Ludwig beside the actual women they compete with are very useful. Even the wokest of wokesters can see at once the conflict here. Their brains must do a bit of a stagger - we can't help but interpret these people as the sex they are.

Yes, podium pictures are complete peak trans vehicles.

Both because seeing a transwoman next to a woman demonstrates the physical differences (even the transwomen who pass pretty well on their own don't pass when posing next to a woman), but also because the brain jumps to "hang on, why does they get a medal? Isn't this a women's event? Why are they allowed to cheat like this?"

There is also the growing controversy in the USA of transwomen taking sports scholarship places at top universities reserved for women.

A great way to get yourself a free education.

And another one

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbi_Lancaster

Are there any other sports in which men and women really could compete on a level playing field?

Darts (though I suspect that our very different forearms make a difference to flight trajectory)

Snooker / pool (though breasts can be a hindrance)

Shooting and archery (breasts also an issue - the Amazon solution seems a bit over the top though...)

Basically skill and mental resilience based events, not those requiring physical strength and speed

Ameilia Galpin the first tanswoman to be featured on the front cover of Women's Running Magazine. The magazine goes on about "Amelia's bravery" - why do they always use that word?

www.thisisinsider.com/first-transgender-woman-on-the-cover-of-womens-running-magazine-2016-6

On mckinnon saying 'i'm a biological woman' - I've seen it a few times. There is a blue tick trans activist on twitter currently saying if a penis belongs to a woman then it is a 'biologically female penis'. It's part of a general move to make it impossible to articulate opposing positions by removing the words. First woman, then female, now biological woman and female anatomy etc are being used in a way that includes male people, leaving no words to label the category formerly known as women. By shuffling the labels we use for the categories they hope to re-draw the boundaries between the categories. Language creating reality rather than describing it.

At the same time someone else is talking about behaviours/characteristics/preferences being coded fem or coded masc (ie gendered expectations and stereotypes) and failing to imagine a world where those things are not considered masculine or feminine in themselves - or that that should be something to strive for. It's why they can't grasp the gc position.

Discarding the fact that some anatomy is female and the other type male, while reifying masculinity and femininity as categories. OK sorry about the derail - back to sport.

Yeahnahyeah I took MN "that would be unthinkable" comment to mean that she didn't agree with hormone treatment for trans children.

I totally agree with her, to start it before puberty means children as young as 8/9 making life long decisions.

Children might want tattoos but its illegal to facilitate them but it's ok to give hormones that will permanently change their bodies development.
Something just wrong there.

"WomEn = plural

Sorry to be pedantic but this typo is really pissing me off now when it comes to this subject.

If we can't get the Spag right at a very basic level it doesn't exactly bode well for our cause.

People will grab at any nuance in semantics to argue, let's just get our words right."

Sjofn please don't say stupid crap like this. I sometimes have trouble remembering my SPaG (and vocab!) due to brain issues. Am I not allowed to express an opinion on womens' rights?

And just to save you the trouble...
"Oh I didn't mean you I meant in general"
"But how can you tell from an individual post whether they are in the same boat as I am?"
"Ummmm"
"Right, so please don't say offensive shit again"

I know FWR can feel intimidating to some women (I do sometimes feel embarrassed about my posts!) and there are some extremely articulate and intelligent posters, but let's encourage women to speak up not shut them down FFS.

Manderleyagaitn

That's frightening and very manipulative.

The tide will turn against Transwomen in womens sport eventually. We might need Rachel and friends to win the Women's Olympic medal or something very high profile for people to wake up.

Archery - no not a level playing field at all, particularly in specific types of archery. In national competitions you can see men drawing some types of bow of 100lbs plus with all the power and distance that generates, and average men's bows are around 50-60lbs. Average women's bows are more often around the 30-40 lbs mark, and I've never yet seen a woman pull a 100lb bow. I've regularly seen men doing it. The competitions are mixed, everyone shoots together but scores are recorded separately for male and female winners. Female winners come in with top scores around average male scores. A transwoman could wander in with a 60lb bow barely having shot before and wipe out the female field.

On mckinnon saying 'i'm a biological woman' - I've seen it a few times

McKinnon would do well to remember that many of the people refuting this assertion haven't 'suddenly became science majors ' - we've been scientists for many years.

Let's just remind ourselves again of McKinnon's area of 'expertise':
https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6619

In science, you do need to know what you're talking about and asserting something false will always result in criticism (and if you keep doing it, derision).

Again, in NZ. This is the best article that wasn't fawning all over Kate - who had a 3 week standdown from competing as a man before competing and winning as a woman.

Whoops
interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/

Archery - no not a level playing field at all, particularly in specific types of archery

I'd guess that if men competed against women in the lower force categories, they'd be at an advantage because it's easier to control if you're not needing to exert your muscles to the max?

ErroltheDragon Olennaswimple
Love the idea of someone choosing between darts or show jumping! I should have been clearer. I was responding to the suggestions that transgender people (including those with full genital reassignment) should have a blanket ban and suggesting that there could be more flexibility in some sports while still being fair.