Times 16/2/1/9 Staff at trans clinic fear damage to children......

[Melroses]

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/staff-at-trans-clinic-fear-damage-to-children-as-activists-pile-on-pressure-c5k655nq9

Does anyone have a share token?

Isn't Victoria Atkins (responsible for Child Sex Abuse & the independent Inquiry) conducting an investigation into ROGD?

August 2018 Victoria Atkins announced the need for an enquiry into the increase of children presenting for treatment.
Telegraph interview extract:
The women’s minister has said she is “cautious” about the number of teenagers undergoing gender reassignment treatment and warned the country needs to be “particularly alert” to the issue.

Victoria Atkins expressed concern that a rising number of teenagers were seeking “life-changing” medical interventions. Young people were undergoing treatment to change their gender because they regard it as “an answer to questions they are not asking themselves”, the minister said.

In an interview with The Telegraph, Mrs Atkins, who has responsibility for the Government’s gender equality policy, said: “I read in the paper recently that there has been a large increase in the number of teenagers who are identifying as such, and I think we need to get down to the reasons why this is happening." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/26/womens-minister-cautious-number-teenagers-undergoing-gender/

September 2018 Times:
'Inquiry into surge in gender treatment ordered by Penny Mordaunt'

(extract)
An investigation has been ordered into why so many girls are seeking gender reassignment after the number referred for treatment rose by more than 4,000% in less than a decade.

The equalities minister, Penny Mordaunt, has instructed her officials to look into the cause.

Official figures show the number of girls being given gender treatment has risen from 40 in 2009-10 to 1,806 in 2017-18.

Last night a source at the Government Equalities Office said: “There has been a substantial increase in the number of individuals assigned female at birth being referred to the NHS.

“There is evidence that this trend is happening in other countries as well. Little is known, however, about why this is and what are the long-term impacts.” (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inquiry-into-surge-in-gender-treatment-ordered-by-penny-mordaunt-b2ftz9hfn

Is there any sign of the Victoria Atkins report? How long do they usually take?

I don't understand why anyone is taken in by the definition of 'Trans ally' as someone who actively obstructs attempts to investigate the issue to get a fuller picture. Why would you think that unquestioning acceptance that leads to extreme medical intervention is the only possible course, and flat out refuse to believe that there could be anyone who thought they were trans and were simply wrong.

What kind of an 'ally' to someone would do that?

Thanks morningtoncrescent.

I don't think there's such a thing as 'naturally trans'. That would require us to accept the idea that gender identity is somehow biological, wired in from (or before?) birth, and is pre-social and pre-verbal. There's no supporting evidence to this effect.

For some, there seems to be a powerful sensation that their body is not right - Kalvin Garrah talks eloquently about it on YouTube. www.youtube.com/channel/UC_qQ2_AVAh8pzj7yklimASQ Garrah describes it as a mental illness. What causes it - some kind of body-mapping thing in the brain, or a traumatic life event - I don't know. Obviously it's going to be difficult to distinguish between those children and others who're just attracted to the trappings of gender. Or are being manipulated.

I now know a young man who's come out as trans. He's a vulnerable person who's long had mental health issues. He seems to be rushing into it, wanting hormone treatment and surgery as soon as possible. I could be wrong but my impression is this person has come into contact with groups on the internet and is making a decision he'll bitterly regret.

GIDS information for young people section:
After series of personal testimonies by transgender children, service statement:
(extracts)
"If you are asking about why you are questioning your gender or why you feel that you are transgender, then the honest answer is we do not know exactly why this happens to some people. There are lots of ideas and theories about why but when it comes to something as complicated as gender identity nothing explains things 100% for 100% of people. What we can say is that there are likely to be a lot of different factors that shape you as a person. Your biology, your personality, your life experiences and thousands of other things all add up to make you you.

Some people feel strongly that they are “born this way” when it come to their gender identity, and they might find the idea of having, for example, “a boy’s brain in a girl’s body” helpful in explaining their experience. Other people aren’t so sure. We know that how people experience and show their gender, and how people respond to gender non-conformity, is linked to the culture and the time in which they live." (continues)

"As a service, we keep in mind the different ideas and theories people may have about why they feel a particular way. It’s impossible for us to have one theory as we see so many different people, with so many different experiences and hopes. In some families, different family members will each have different ways of understanding things. Rather than trying to work out who is right and who is wrong, we value all of the different ideas that you and your family might have, and will think about which ideas are going to be most helpful in supporting you.

Many young people tell us that they are less interested in why they might have a particular gender identity, and that what matters more is getting the right help or support for them and their future.

Whatever anyone thinks, we believe that you have a right to feel or identify the way you do and you have a right to be supported in this, whether this changes or stays the same."

gids.nhs.uk/young-people#why-do-I-feel-this-way?#why-do-i-feel-this-way

What is causing all this is autogynephilia [AGP] ... and these men lying about it under the guise of "gender dysphoria" and using children as human shields for their sexual behaviours.

If "gender dysphoria" is real how come there are zero examples of adult heterosexual females who 'transition' compared with the number of adult heterosexual males who 'transition'? If "gender dysphoria" is real, surely it would affect both sexes in similar ways?

Does anyone here think it's possible that a child could be naturally 'trans' and need surgery as the only possible option? Even if it's just a small fraction of those being diagnosed as trans?

Trans is an invention. There's no such thing as a 'trans child'.

What is causing all this is autogynephilia [AGP] ... and these men lying about it under the guise of "gender dysphoria" and using children as human shields for their sexual behaviours.

article by Sue Donym, 'The Elephant In The Room'
concludes:
Please Discuss The Elephant
If there’s one thing you ought to do, it’s discuss the elephant. Please discuss the elephant. Don’t leave it rampaging around the room, destroying everything in its path.

Autogynephilia is a weird concept. It can be inaccessible. But it needs to be discussed in the LGBT community, and openly. Not talking about it is causing way too much damage — we have had our organizations taken over, our spaces colonized, and our sexuality redefined. Thanks to these men, you can no longer say ‘I am, gay, meaning exclusively same-sex attracted’ without being labelled a TERF. That’s not a good thing.

Dancing around the subject isn’t helpful. While the ultimate result of autogynephilia is homophobic rhetoric, is important to remember that a sexual fantasy, not homophobia, motivates such rhetoric. That is the root cause of the problem.

Worse is the effect on autogynephiles themselves. ‘Transgender’ is not an umbrella. It is a term that erases the very different motivations and causes of various forms of gender dysphoria. It does people who claim the label absolutely no favors. The original inclusion of the ‘T’ was designed for homosexual transsexuals, and include them with other same-sex attracted individuals. It was not designed to include autogynephiles, who are heterosexual males, or ‘queer’ individuals who are heterosexual but believe dying their hair some variation of neon should mean they are included. Making ‘transgender’ an umbrella not only erases the very different causes and struggles associated with homosexual transsexuality, it also obscures the causes of, and struggles associated with autogynephilia. Autogynephilia is not a condition I would wish on anyone. It is a unique, somewhat bizarre struggle, and reading through many of the accounts of it was quite sad. It can make its sufferers lonely and unable to connect with intimate partners. But enabling it, and on a grand scale, has caused immense damage to homosexuals, particularly lesbians, who have lost almost all their spaces and communities to colonization.

Please discuss the elephant."
medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

RO thanks for that article.

See also: 4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

I don't think it's possible to be 'naturally trans' either. I think it's possible that some people will suffer from such a severe dysphoria that surgery is the best option for them - the same way as I believe it's sometimes the best option for people who are convinced that one of their limbs shouldn't belong to them. In extreme cases, surgery will improve the quality of life for both these categories of people, removing whatever perceived (not objective) mismatch between brain and body has occurred.

I don't believe either group should be getting surgery as children, though. Or as anything other than a last resort. And most young people who call themselves trans aren't suffering from this sort of dysphoria.

Some people feel strongly that they are “born this way” when it come to their gender identity, and they might find the idea of having, for example, “a boy’s brain in a girl’s body” helpful in explaining their experience.

Where did this idea of a 'gender identity' come from? Why should our identity be connected to 'gender' in any way? We have the biological reality of sex - we are male or female. Anything else is personality, and anyone, male or female, can have any personality. That is not dependent on our sex, much less our 'gender'.

It's the relentless pigeonholing which causes the problems - deciding how well we fit the pigeonhole that goes with our sex, and how we should label ourselves as a result.

Garrah describes it as a mental illness. What causes it - some kind of body-mapping thing in the brain, or a traumatic life event - I don't know.

This is something different. This is nothing to do with gender. It's a mismatch between the brain and how it perceives the body - a feeling that the perfectly healthy body is somehow 'wrong'.

So there seem to be two things at play here. There is 'gender identity', which says that female people should present/act differently from male people, which encourages girls to think they are boys if they reject clothing and activities which are labelled 'for girls'. Then there are the people with this mental disconnect between their brains and bodies.

see also,
Miranda Yardley article, 'A History of Autogynephilia' (2017)
mirandayardley.com/en/a-history-of-autogynephilia/

'What Autogynephilia is, and what is it not; a brief note' (AUGUST 2016)
extract
"I wanted to explain some aspects of what autogynephilia is. It was initially posted as two separate post on MumsNet in response to questions about what it is, and a number of limiting preconceptions a number of people had (mainly that autogynephilia is confined solely to erotic cross-dressing) which limited their ability to get a grasp on this fascinating subject. I’ve posted it here as I didn’t want what I’d written to be lost forever in a long discussion thread. I will use this as a basis for a more comprehensive essay at a later point in time." (continues)
mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/

That article is so terribly sad. It highlighted some of the cases that you cannot believe goes on and yet they do. Mermaids hasn’t exactly pointed out that some dc are being sent to become ‘trans’ so they can hide the fact that they’re gay.

Absolutely tragic for these dc. Nhs money would be better spent separating these dc from their families for enough time to ensure the opinions expressed by them are their own and not dictated to them. Having come from a background of abuse where I was silenced completely and then questions were raised to my parents to ‘prove everything was ok’ even though it was my parents causing the abuse, I truly believe the dc need to be separated from these abuses to get to the truth. I also believe an automatic autism assessment should be triggered when dc mention becoming trans as there seems to be a high link with autism and the wish to become trans. That is a disabled persons thinking. That doesn’t mean we automatically give the dc what they feel they want.
I have no issue with trans people but I do have an issue with it becoming ‘fashionable’ and social media jumping in the bandwagon to influence these poor dc.

In my darkest moments on why anyone would want to do this to our youth , I think about others with no emotional gain, to treat them as lab rats. They are pushing the boundaries of experimentation, on kids with mental health issues who they see as damaged and therefore not important. They are using the young people to perfect surgery; gain status; advance medical wonders such as womb implants by taking young trans men, i.e girls, wombs and their beautiful eggs to give to those with money, who can’t have kids and thus sacrificing these young people for their own needs and for money ofcourse. For guys though, I’m not sure what the drive is to trans them. My mind is not depraved enough but I’m sure it is something to do with this. Men are abusing our boys too because let’s face it what woman would touch a trans woman. Then we are left with the lowlife and depraved.

TheSteveMilliband
@BetsyM00 how do you do sharetokens? The Times has published a lot lately on gender but I can't work out how to share the full article

You have to have a subscription! Then, under the photo at the top of the article, click on the email share button. The draft email that pops up will contain the share token link. Copy and paste.

It's the script stuff that has me questioning how this can possibly be allowed to continue unchecked.

What other field of medicine would have clinicians noticing the same on-script reasons from a large number of juvenile patients, and hear coaching on the script from parents, and nobody slam the brakes on quicker than you could say malpractice?

That's got to be an unavoidable scandal about to pop, surely?

Indeed feminist
And not least wth the constant accusations that this is a transphobic forum.

Where did this idea of a 'gender identity' come from? Why should our identity be connected to 'gender' in any way? We have the biological reality of sex - we are male or female. Anything else is personality, and anyone, male or female, can have any personality. That is not dependent on our sex, much less our 'gender'.

significant thread with links to historical basis.
AngryAttackKittens comment:
"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

BBC documentary shared by OP Sunkisses -Aug-18
"I did a search of Mumsnet and couldn't see any other posts about this extraordinary 1973 discussion show which was produced by transsexuals 45 years ago where they were given free-reign, free from editorial control. Four transsexuals are joined by a psychologist and an MP.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06c83f4/player

Where to start? Maybe with the show's producer and host, Della Aleksander, who is the most bizarre of all the participants. Della starts by claiming that a "chastened and wiser" Adolf Hitler and Queen Victoria have said, through a medium, that "there was a special role for me, in the reconstruction following a world wide collapse in 1978-79". Della also claims to have been sent from another world where the sexes don't exist and that transsexuals are the only model of a "higher race"! Della also claims to have founded the neo-Nazi sounding European National Movement in South Africa whilst serving in the Army there (I couldn't find any info on them, but they sound well dodgy to me).

Della also seems utterly confused, mis-using the terms 'bisexual' and 'intersex', and appearing to think these words mean transsexual, and that the appearance of nipples on a man means 'we are all transsexuals'. Della is, thankfully, corrected by the psychologist at 33.53 mins in who states that it is important to use the correct terminology, but Della wafts such trivialities away by saying "I don't want to get bogged down in medical questions". The MP, Leo Abse, argues against the 'trans umbrella' (before this term was invented by Stonewall etc) at 36 mins in.

There is clear evidence of autogynephilia (AGP - the sexual fetish of a man loving himself as a woman) at 33.23 when Della says the "sex act" is a "transsexual one", as "one attempts to become and absorb the beloved".

At 26 mins in one of the speakers, Rachel Bowen (the working class northern transsexual with dark hair), says that having a female birth certificate is a "status symbol". Another of the transsexuals, Laura Pralet, at 27 mins preposterously claims that "we are not a minority", and "I have never been a homosexual", even though Laura lives with and has married a man. Laura also says their husband is never happier when they are "in the kitchen", and at 31 mins in says they wanted to become a woman as "women have the best deal anyway".

It's absolutely fascinating and well worth a watch."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3327193-BBC-Open-Door-programme-45-years-ago-on-transsexuals-a-real-jaw-dropper

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

An historical perspective of another medical scandal:

4thwavenow.com/2017/02/10/lobotomy-the-rise-and-fall-of-a-miracle-cure/

DD was absolutely groomed by older trans people online and later by older local transgirls. She created a whole new life story for herself, events were twisted to fit the trans narrative. I'm glad people at GIDs are noticing it.

I can't believe it's now 4 years since we were referred to CAMHS, nearly 7 years after DD first first identified as trans, and that it's only now that people in the clinic are speaking up. I had many off the record conversations with clinicians who didn't believe the party line of 'Your trans if you say you're trans'. However, they couldn't say anything officially.

As soon as the local CAMHS heard DD say she was trans, they washed their hands of her because it wasn't a mental health issue - despite the many obvious ASD/OCD behaviours. All we got was a green light to be referred to the Tavistock. I can well believe that the Tavistock don't have the time or funds to do a through evaluation of each referral. It's why I refused to get DD referred.

These are very vulnerable patients being referred, with complex issues, who have often been groomed to use threats of suicide to get faster treatment. Add to that the concern of parents who have been groomed to think their child will kill themselves unless they transition and you can see how highly charged the atmosphere is and how critical thinking gets forgotten and demands for faster treatment seen as bullying.

What would help end the abuse of children is vastly increased funding for youth mental health. A 2 year wait for an ASD assessment is not unusual, we only got tier 3 services from CAMHS once DD took an overdose. They can't afford to provide tier 1/2 services, I believe DD would never have got as far as an overdose if there were adequate interventions at an earlier stage. There would also be less of a feeling of having to go private for a diagnosis and treatment.

I agree. It is a total script. Words such as authentic self; essence; repression and if I don’t do this I will die are just a few of the narrative told to kids to use. They have been taught the words to use. The saddest bit about these words is also your parents don’t respect you. Leave them. We will be your family. You are important. Look out for you. If your family don’t accept you we will love you. It’s a fucking script and our kids don’t see it.

This makes me absolutely fucking furious.

I have never heard calls for more support for ‘trans’ children from the likes of Mermaids and Stonewall. Quite the opposite in fact as SG tweeted there shouldn’t be a need for psychological support for children. The TRAs are so wrapped up in appropriating the word ‘woman’ and t*rf hunting there will be no sound from them. They give no shits about the children they are grooming. No campaigning for more resources, no campaigning for appropriate healthcare. No fucks given whatsoever.

It’s absolutely scandalous.

I think the kids, to a certain extent, do realise it's a script though. The script just provides a means to get the treatment. DD knew if she voiced any doubts it'd slow down the treatment pathway. That's the really scary thing.

non I’m dealing with this in my family. Can I ask what has happened to your daughter now?