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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Teen Survival Guide by Fox and Owl

185 replies

womensvoicesmatter · 16/02/2019 15:28

I was curious what's being peddled to teens, so I got the book. I'm only a few pages in and pretty horrified, so I thought I'd share it with you lot.

(This might take some time though, I don't have a lot of free time right now!)

Even the inscription is enraging. The book is dedicated to their trans friend who committed suicide. It's not a subtle few words, it's a whol page including a cartoon of this person with a halo. And it says the book is based on the blog they wrote on tumblr.

While of course I'm sad for Fox and Owl that their friend died, and I recognise that to lose someone to suicide is a terrible trauma I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, I also think it's deeply irresponsible to start a book aimed at teenagers, lauding someone who killed themselves - especially given the popular myths and misuse of suicide stats about trans kids.

It makes me suspicious of the book before we've even started. What kind of propaganda lies within?

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/02/2019 21:30

Sex my childs sex i cant define that with out a blood test and dna evidence

So you have a child. How did you tell what sort of person to make that child with? Can anybody make a child with anybody, or are there certain specific characteristics required by each party?

ToeToToe · 21/02/2019 21:33

"transpired" Grin

Ahh, Wine to my "transpiratorial" Mumsnet friends.

OhHolyJesus · 21/02/2019 21:42

Transpired? Did we trans and expire (cease to exist) at the same time? Did we all spontaneously combust from reading the trans nonsense? Nope, still here, still angry, still fighting Hmm

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/02/2019 21:45

They can just fox off. Leave them kids alone.

NotTerfNorCis · 21/02/2019 21:48

It's transpired that Fox has removed the comment and reposted for some reason.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 21/02/2019 21:50

Which one is Fox again? The man who says he is female or the woman who says she is a man? I get confused... surely it should be Vixen anyway?

NotTerfNorCis · 21/02/2019 22:02

Fox is the macho one. Owl wears flowery dresses and is filmed doing the laundry.

SisterWendyBuckett · 21/02/2019 22:19

"Transphobic bigots" declares Fox with incisive originality.

Nah mate, we're women with brains and a grip on reality.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 21/02/2019 22:23

"Transphobic bigots" declares Fox with incisive originality.
Nah mate, we're women with brains and a grip on reality.

"Conspiring", Said Fox, "Doesn't have enough fire"
"I think i will state that they all will transpire"

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 21/02/2019 22:26

Oh this thread 🤣

I like that Mind Manipulation is a sponsored link to the trans teen book.

I'm confused about the Juno Dawson book though, aren't they actually straight now?

Trans Teen Survival Guide by Fox and Owl
MaryContrary1995 · 21/02/2019 22:42

Like many, the grooming of children aspect of this issue is the major problem I have with it all. It really makes my skin crawl how they use mermaids, and here the Fox and Owl. I'm sure there's people on here that understand what i mean and can put it better than me. But it's so creepy that the movement is using childrens story imagery and using it to sell their ideology. Seriously, it creeps me the hell out [sick]

RockyFlintstone · 21/02/2019 22:55

So just report any negative reviews, and get them deleted? Confused

Can you even do that? What is the point of reviews then?

CharlieParley · 21/02/2019 23:57

calpop I do sometimes wonder if a simple blood test at birth (or before, now that they can be done non-invasively) might actually be a good idea.

In an ideal world, this could indeed be a good thing. Sadly, in this world the medical and medtech progress made in determining the sex of a fetus at ever earlier stages of pregnancy has led to sex-selective abortion. The son preference prevalent in all societies where the option of sex-determination in early pregnancy exists, has led to the natural ratio of female to male babies being changed in favour of males. Over the last thirty years in Australia for instance, sex-selective abortion has led to the natural ratio of 105 to 107 boys being born for every 100 girls being shifted to 124 boys being born for every 100 girls.

I found out the sex of my babies in months 4 or 5 (also for medical reasons), and it was important and wonderful that this was possible, but I can't help agreeing with the argument that there should now be restriction placed on this because sex-selective abortion of females is measurably increasing in the UK.

FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 22/02/2019 00:43

It's obviously conspired. But poor Fox has been so addled with jargon they just stick random 'trans' prefixes everywhere.

Bless you Fox, I won't be reviewing your indoctrination manual. Just warning everyone to keep it away from their kids like any other cult material. Toodle pip!

Datun · 22/02/2019 10:53

The review that fox promotes just one that said how grateful the person was to be helped to be gender fluid?

It's like me thanking someone for writing a book telling in which had to hold my knife and fork. Or suggesting that it's okay for me to like a variety of colours.

Why do people need permission or hand holding for acting completely normally?

OldCrone · 22/02/2019 11:07

Datun didn't you get the message that not being a stereotypical Barbie or GI Joe is special? If you're not an extreme pink or brown jelly baby on the Mermaids scale of gender, then you're a special trans jelly baby that needs help to become your true authentic self.

Of course us silly women here with our pink and fluffy lady brains couldn't hope to understand this, since we're all totally pink Barbies.

Fox, if you're reading this (which I'm sure you are), can you tell us if that's what you really think? Because it certainly looks like it.

Datun · 22/02/2019 11:12

Fox, if you are reading this. You wanting to identify as male is something you could do without altering any part of yourself or even saying it out loud.

So the conclusion is you want people to treat you as 'male'. Because that way you get something out of it.

Do you not understand that you deciding society should treat men and women differently, is what underpins misogyny and sexism?

Do you not understand that it's less about you being who you really are, and more about you wanting people to treat you as you think you should be - thereby cementing the different treatment of men and women?

Otherwise you would never have to alter even the smallest part of your appearance.

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 22/02/2019 12:46

datun
Nailed it.
You are the one that should be writing books for teens!

RockyFlintstone · 22/02/2019 13:36

Daaaaatuuuuuunnnnnnn!

You have totally summed up what is wrong with then entire trans movement with what you just said.

SisterWendyBuckett · 22/02/2019 13:44

YES Datun

HawayMan · 22/02/2019 21:05

Fox, I find it odd that you've blocked me on Twitter even though we have never spoke.

I bet you've blocked most Mumsnet users actually. But then, why are you reading this thread?

NotANotMan · 22/02/2019 21:09

#blockedByFox

BettyDuMonde · 23/02/2019 14:25

I thought this was interesting, in relation to F&O and the current crop of trans identified young people (the bolding is somewhat maddening so I will copy and paste the bits I found relevant):

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2018/11/13/gender-identity-isnt-a-box-its-a-yardstick/

“A more illuminating object to metaphorically represent gender identity can be found in a yardstick.

In this view, men and women are measured according to two distinct sets of standards. A person who is meticulously groomed and uses a range of makeup products “measures up” very well according to the yardstick marked “woman,” but would be assigned low marks on the “man” yardstick. A person who dates women and wears trousers, never skirts/dresses, measures as bog-standard on the “man” yardstick, but would not achieve the same average measurement on the “woman” stick.

When examined this way, the distinction between “gender identity” and “gender roles” becomes more clear: gender identity is the selection of one’s yardstick, while gender roles are the markings on the yardstick that you measure yourself against. With this idea in place, respecting another person’s gender identity means measuring them according to the yardstick they prefer.

In a capitalist culture that generates continuously-evolving countercultures and promotes self-discovery and uniqueness — a culture in which “basic” is an insult — the person who transitions even though their original “box” was a better fit is doing so in order to be measured as unusual on a new yardstick. If you’re a person who likes video games, does computer programming for a living, and watches a lot of pornography, your place on the “man” yardstick positions you as not terribly unusual, and not terribly desirable. But on the “woman” yardstick, measured from the perspective of their own male gaze (“why, I’d love to meet a woman who liked video games, porn, and programming!”), they become an unusual, desirable nerdy girl.”

(I’m not sure I agree with the way the radical feminist position ‘gender is a box/cage’) is presented in the rest of the piece, but I think this bit goes quite some way to explaining the position of the current generation - and indeed, why some of the more age-mature transsexual-identifying people seem so at odds with trans ideology/why trans ideology is at odds with the transsexual lived experience).

I’d prefer my kids to live in a yardstick/cage/box-free world, personally. Measured as individuals, with their distinct biological-sex needs respected and provided for.

Katvonfelttipeyebrows · 23/02/2019 15:12

I would love to hear Fox respond to Datun.

Or try too

NotTerfNorCis · 23/02/2019 16:30

gender identity is the selection of one’s yardstick, while gender roles are the markings on the yardstick that you measure yourself against.

Brilliant summary of it.