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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joshua Kennon? More than two sexes...

100 replies

JamPasty · 11/02/2019 22:18

I'm sorry wise women - I know you've answered this before, but can I find the threads; can I buggery.

Two mates on Facebook are trying to tell me there are several sexes, based on this article:

www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

I'm assuming Kennon's mixing up intersex with sex, but has anyone managed to explain the difference in a simple non-argument starting way? The people posting this article are people I care about and don't want to hurt, plus maybe I can convince them. So far I've just said I think Kennon's mixing up sex and intersex.

PS - can we start a thread with nice simple argument points for use by people like me who are as erudite as sponge puddings when it comes to this sort of thing? Thanks!

OP posts:
JamPasty · 12/02/2019 12:12

No worries Betty - pass the gin :)

OP posts:
MillytantForceit · 12/02/2019 12:14

Most(?) plants are male and female in one organism.

This is not a third sex.

Treefloof · 12/02/2019 12:16

JaesseJexaMaipru

Won the internet today with such a concise and precise post. Thank you, take a bow. Smile

WhereYouLeftIt · 12/02/2019 14:19

ErrolTheDragon
'Non-binary' often seems to mean rejecting gender stereotypes for yourself.
'Gender critical' means rejecting the whole concept of gender stereotypes.

Spot on.

GrumpyGran8 · 12/02/2019 14:23

Can I ask what it really means for you personally; if it impacts you in any personal way... to only have two sexes or multiple...
does it harm you in anyway... or just your theory?*It's not anyone's theory - it's observable biological fact.
You're free to call yourself nonbinary, queer, any gender you like, but that doesn't change your biological sex. Because gender is not sex.
And intersex people are thoroughly fed up with being dragged into this argument - they are NOT a third sex. Yes, many IS people have suffered uneeded surgical intervention as babies, but that's a whole different matter and medical science is coming round to the realisation that any surgery - if it takes place at all - should wait until much later in the child's life. Now please go back and read the links that other Mumsnetters have provided.

AugustL · 12/02/2019 21:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AugustL · 12/02/2019 21:59

This should be in bold

Others that are not on Joshua's list, showing that he didn't bother even googling what he decided to talk about without knowing his facts and instead just repeating some bs:

VickyEadie · 12/02/2019 22:09

Apparently TRAs are becoming even more interested in appropriating DSDs and some are starting to claim they are themselves "intersex".

AugustL · 12/02/2019 22:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 22:25

Apparently TRAs are becoming even more interested in appropriating DSDs and some are starting to claim they are themselves "intersex".

Of course. Perfect way to blur the line between sex and "gender".

AugustL · 12/02/2019 22:26

Oh gosh, nightmare, now the links didn't work, and preview isn't working so I couldn't check. I wish we had an edit button.
(you can delete my other postS, I edited it myself to make it bold 😊 sorry for the double posting)

"Still two games apparently. The six "sexes" are(copied from the article):

X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) - female
XX – Most common form of female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) - male
XY – Most common form of male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people - male
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births" - male

Nah. There are two sexes.
I don't think these are classed as intersex either. Unless I'm mistaken. From what I'm reading about them they don't have "intersex" effects in terms of intersex genitalia and/or sex organs, and/or mismatch between sex chromosomes and phenotype, (unlike the XY androgen insensitivity/complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, and issues with the SRY gene, also mentioned in this thread). The different sex chromosome combinations on Joshua's list are conditions, genetic disorders affecting either males or females.

Others on the list have been linked to on the list, this is the last one on the list

XXXY

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXXY_syndrome

"XXXY syndrome is a genetic disorder characterized by a sex chromosome aneuploidy, where males have two extra X chromosomes.[1] Males typically have only two sex chromosomes, an X and a Y. The presence of one Y chromosome with a functioning SRY gene causes the expression of genes that determine maleness. Because of this, XXXY syndrome only affects males. The additional two X chromosomes in males with XXXY syndrome causes them to have 48 chromosomes, instead of the typical 46. So, XXXY syndrome is often referred to as 48, XXXY. There are a wide variety of symptoms associated with this syndrome, including cognitive and behavioral problems, Taurodontism, and infertility.[1][2] This syndrome is usually inherited via a new mutation in one of the parents’ gametes, as those affected by it are usually infertile. It is estimated that XXXY affects one in every 50,000 male births"

Others that are NOT on Joshua's list, showing that he didn't bother even googling what he decided to talk about without knowing his facts and instead just repeating some bs:

XXX

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome

"Triple X syndrome, also known as trisomy X and 47,XXX, is characterized by the presence of an extra X chromosome in each cell of a female.[1] Those affected are often taller than average.[1] Usually there are no other physical differences and normal fertility.[1] Occasionally there are learning difficulties, decreased muscle tone, seizures, or kidney problems.[1]
Triple X is due to a random event.[1] Triple X can result either during the division of the mother's reproductive cells or during division of cells during early development.[2] It is not typically inherited from one generation to the next.[1] A form where only a percentage of the body cells contain XXX can also occur.[1] Diagnosis is by chromosomal analysis.[3]

Treatment may include speech therapy, physical therapy, and counseling.[3] It occurs in about one in every 1,000 female births.[2] It is estimated that 90% of those affected are not diagnosed as they either have no or only few symptoms.[2] It was first identified in 1959.[4]"

XXXX

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrasomy_X

"This condition occurs only in females, as there are no Y chromosomes present.

Tetrasomy X was first described in 1961, and since then approximately 100 cases have been reported worldwide. Approximately 60 affected females have been described in the medical literature"

XXXXY

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/49,XXXXY

"49,XXXXY syndrome is an extremely rare aneuploidic sex chromosomal abnormality. It occurs in approximately 1 out of 85,000 to 100,000 males.

Aneuploidy is often fatal, but in this case there is "X-inactivation" where the effect of the additional gene dosage due to the presence of extra X chromosomes is greatly reduced.[3]

Much like Down syndrome, the mental effects of 49,XXXXY syndrome vary. Impaired speech and behavioral problems are typical.[4] Those with 49,XXXXY syndrome tend to exhibit infantile secondary sex characteristics with sterility in adulthood and have some skeletal anomalies. Skeletal anomalies include..."

XXXXX

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentasomy_X

"The condition is extremely rare, with less than forty reported cases as of 2011." Oh look another rare sex sarcasm
"Pentasomy X, also known as 49,XXXXX, is a chromosomal abnormality in which a female has five X chromosomes instead of the normal two.[2] Signs may include intellectual disability, short height, low-set ears, decreased muscle tone, and developmental delay.[1][2] Complications may include congenital heart disease.[3]"

"The condition is due to problems during the formation of the reproductive cells in a person's parents.[2] Risk factors include older parents at the time of conception.[2] Diagnosis is suspected based on symptoms and confirmed by chromosomal analysis
The aneuploidy is thought to be caused by problems occurring during meiosis, either in the mother or in both the mother and father. Successive nondisjunctions have been observed in the mother of at least one patient.[4][6]

The features of the syndrome likely arise due to failure of X-inactivation and the presence of multiple X chromosomes from the same parent causing problems with parental imprinting. In theory, X-inactivation should occur and leave only one X chromosome active in each cell. However, failure of this process has been observed in one individual studied. The reason for this is thought to be the presence of an unusually large, and imbalanced, number of X chromosomes interfering with the process.[6]"

XYYY

"48,XYYY syndrome is a rare Y chromosome number anomaly that affects only males and is characterized by mild-moderate developmental delay (especially speech), normal to mild intellectual disability, large, irregular teeth with poor enamel, tall stature and acne. Radioulnar stenosis and clinodactyly have also been associated. Boys generally present normal genitalia, while hypogonadism and infertility is frequently reported in adult males."

rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/11985/48-xyyy

XXYY

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXYY_syndrome

"XXYY syndrome is a sex chromosome anomaly in which males have an extra X and Y chromosome. Human cells usually contain two sex chromosomes, one from the mother and one from the father. Usually, females have two X chromosomes (XX) and males have one X and one Y chromosome (XY). The appearance of at least one Y chromosome with a properly functioning SRY gene makes a male. Therefore, humans with XXYY are genotypically male. Males with XXYY syndrome have 48 chromosomes instead of the typical 46. This is why XXYY syndrome is sometimes written as 48,XXYY syndrome or 48,XXYY. It affects an estimated one in every 18,000–40,000 male births.[1]"

We can all Google to find others...

From a brief read, a lot, even though they have some issues, seem to be fine overall, and some not even know they have this. Some only know because of fertility issues.
Not all have fertility issues.
Not all with these conditions survive. Miscarriages, still births, deaths later on from heart conditions and other conditions. I read recently 98-99% of those with Turner's syndrome (X) don't survive to live birth for example, and others who do survive to birth later can have serious heart problems.
"Despite the excellent postnatal prognosis, 99% of Turner syndrome conceptions are thought to end in miscarriage or stillbirth"
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turner_syndrome
I have also read the majority with Turner's who survive have happy and healthy life.
I haven't looked up about survival of the other conditions, only wiki.

This is a word that keeps coming up

Aneuploidy

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneuploidy

Caucho · 12/02/2019 22:28

Oh shit there’s too many scientific facts here. And regardless of the false intersex narratives peddled - the majority of trans people can’t claim any intersex condition so is a moot point anyway and any strive for 3rd sex bullishlt shouldn’t really help their cause

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 22:32

I think it's more that if they undermine the idea of two sexes, people will think that it's possible to be born with the wrong brain as a DSD.

Caucho · 12/02/2019 22:34

I have sympathy for the likes of Caster Semnya raised a woman their entire life, probably despondent and not a charlatan or piss taking opportunist. Still not sure whether she should compete as a female though. Extremely tough on her for sure but not exactly fair for her competitors either. What’s fair? Her own rights or every other athletes who have to race against her?

Caucho · 12/02/2019 22:46

Caster certainly isn’t an outright cheat whi should be considered alongside the likes of Hubbard, McKinnon or Mouncey. Once dodgy countries start filling their entire rosters with trans sportspeople in the quest for medals I hope this madness will be laid bare. Would love John McEnroe to put his money where his gobby mouth is and challenge Serena Williams by self identifying as a woman for one tournament at least

Voice0fReason · 12/02/2019 23:17

I do understand; the difference between gender & sex; I was born with a vagina et al... but I am non-binary.
So you are a woman who rejects gender stereotypes.
There's nothing unusual about that.

AugustL · 12/02/2019 23:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AugustL · 13/02/2019 21:13

"From a brief read, a lot, even though they have some issues, seem to be fine overall, and some not even know they have this..."

I'm not comfortable with what I wrote at the bottom of my post. I shouldn't have said "a lot" were "fine", I just saw on some of the pages for some, not all, of the syndromes that it said some people, and even a lot on one of the syndromes I recall, don't know they have that particular syndrome because they may have few or no symptoms, (or possibly don't know where those symptoms they do have came from), it depends on which syndrome and/or what the particular individual experiences I guess.

I'm not an expert on this, I looked them up, and I don't want to diminish any of the syndromes or symptoms, conditions or issues a person with one of these syndromes may have. Depending on which syndrome it is, they can have lots of different issues and conditions, possibilities include involving the heart, kidney, seizures, cognitive, behavioural, learning disabilities, skeletal, muscle, joint, teeth, palate issues, deformities, distinctive facial/other physical features, I think one or two or some of the syndromes (lol I'm being careful now, I really can't remember) had/could have hypogonadism (diminished function of either testes or ovaries, resulting in diminished production of sex hormones, problems with sperm production or egg release), puberty issues, in one of the male syndromes it said their testes may not be descended. and on another, that they can have "infantilie secondary sex characteristics".

Lots of different possible symptoms and conditions, for each syndrome, what I've written here is not all of them at all, there were words that I didn't know and can't remember and lots I'm not writing here as I'm not going to go back and look up each syndrome and copy and paste each of their different possible symptoms lists on this thread, I didn't copy them all into the other post, I didn't even give any info on the syndromes Joshua listed, apart from one, as links had been posted for the others elsewhere in the thread and I wanted to make the point that there were actually more syndromes than Joshua listed, and each was not a different sex, they were all either male or female, no confusion. Anyone can go look them all up if they want.

There are lists of the different symptoms and conditions the different syndromes have or can have on each Wikipedia page, or Google to find out, which is much better than listening to me. Each syndrome is different and each person can have variations on which symptoms are experienced, and variations of severity of these symptoms, (not for all syndromes/symptoms). It said on a couple/some (arrgh I don't know how many/which ones!) of the syndromes that some or even a lot with that particular syndrome don't know they have the syndrome, (even if they have some of the issues associated with it, I assume, but also they may have no or few symptoms) or don't know until they experience fertility issues. Some of the syndromes said those with that particular syndrome can have/do have normal fertility, others, I think most of the syndromes, but would have to check if it was "most", said they do have or most have fertility issues and other syndromes said those with it were infertile or sterile or mostly/frequently/tend to be infertile/sterile. It depends which syndrome, or what the individual experiences.
I know for Triple X syndrome wiki page said, though there are symptoms of it, it's estimated 90% are not diagnosed with it because they have no or few symptoms, and have normal fertility. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome
I've heard of men, and know one personally, with Klinefelter's not knowing they have it (I don't know if they experienced symptoms, or did but didn't know or didn't know what it was) until they had fertility issues. The syndromes are all different and for some of them the individuals don't necessarily experience the same issues. This is bloody stressful and not straight forward and I don't know why I'm even trying to summarise lol. It's impossible. I should never have tried. Yeah, you can/SHOULD go look each syndrome up yourself for all this stuff. It's better than listening to me.

In relation to the purpose of the thread, they are fine in terms of which sex they are, they are one sex or the other. Female or male.

And from everything I've read, of each syndrome, they don't have intersex conditions like intersex/mixed genitalia and/or sex organs, and/or mismatch between sex chromosomes and phenotype/sex organs/genitalia. None of them. (unlike the XY androgen insensitivity/complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, and issues with the SRY gene, which are separate conditions, but have been mentioned in this thread).

Bloody hell, this was stressful for my OCD and anxiety lol, did I mention, everyone go and Google all these syndromes and read about them for yourselves lol please, I think I did 😂 corgrats and my sympathies if you've read all of my rambling. Embarrassing.

JamPasty · 13/02/2019 21:57

@AugustL - you are a star and I really appreciate what you have written! I shall read all of it, and worry not, I shall also google. From a fellow anxious - hugs!

OP posts:
LuggsaysNotaWomen · 13/02/2019 22:38

I read recently 98-99% of those with Turner's syndrome (X) don't survive to live birth for example, and others who do survive to birth later can have serious heart problems.

Yep, I had a family member who died in her mid twenties due to complications from Turner Syndrome. She had spent a lot of time in and out of hospital for various issues arising from it and whilst being infertile was a sadness for her, she had many other challenges that were more pressing (having said all that, she lived a really full life).

I also know a mum who lost two babies late on in pregnancy due to Turners. It was extremely traumatic for her.

I find it annoying when people talk of these conditions as if they are just some cool kind of biological variant and don't seem to realise that they can have a deleterious impact on people's health and wellbeing.

AugustL · 13/02/2019 23:15

@JamPasty Smile Blush Wink Wine 👍

AugustL · 13/02/2019 23:37

@LuggsaysNotaWomen Thank you for sharing. You and those ladies have my sympathies. It's annoying for me when people try to wrongly use these conditions to try to benefit their unrelated ideology, especially because it makes no sense to do so. I can't imagine the frustration of those with direct experience.
I don't know if the guy I know with Klinefelter syndrome knew people were wrongly saying he wasn't male/a man, and instead nonsense that he's some kind of other sex, if he would be upset and angry or laugh at the ignorance and stupidity of the thought.

Yambabe · 13/02/2019 23:51

So hang on. This might be a bit muddled but am I right in thinking that some TRAs are saying that there are more than 2 sexes, and trans people are wanting to claim that they are intersex or are like intersex, which they say is a "third sex" or a variety of sexes?

Doesn't that entirely disprove TWAW? Hmm

Surely if they are going to co-opt DSD in this way the logical conclusion is that as people with DSD are always male or female but sometimes outwardly present other than their actual sex then trans can also be male or female but presenting outwardly different to their actual sex too.

So of what benefit to them is the third sex, or sex-as-spectrum theory? Seems to me that if we accept they are right about that then trans people are neither the sex they are natally or the sex they are trying to transition into. So they are effectively "othering" themselves? But "othering" is bad?

Jeez, the logical knots that can be tied in trans ideology really are brain-frying aren't they?

R0wantrees · 14/02/2019 08:42

This might be a bit muddled but am I right in thinking that some TRAs are saying that there are more than 2 sexes, and trans people are wanting to claim that they are intersex or are like intersex, which they say is a "third sex" or a variety of sexes?

There is a long history of some TRAs appropriating intersex medical conditions for political as well as personal benefit.

Cwenthryth · 14/02/2019 17:40

Even the phrase “assigned at birth” is appropriated from intersex people.

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