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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joshua Kennon? More than two sexes...

100 replies

JamPasty · 11/02/2019 22:18

I'm sorry wise women - I know you've answered this before, but can I find the threads; can I buggery.

Two mates on Facebook are trying to tell me there are several sexes, based on this article:

www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

I'm assuming Kennon's mixing up intersex with sex, but has anyone managed to explain the difference in a simple non-argument starting way? The people posting this article are people I care about and don't want to hurt, plus maybe I can convince them. So far I've just said I think Kennon's mixing up sex and intersex.

PS - can we start a thread with nice simple argument points for use by people like me who are as erudite as sponge puddings when it comes to this sort of thing? Thanks!

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2019 08:27

We do not want anyone to be forced into a gender stereotype, regardless of their sex, be that big standard m/f or intersex. Sex, simply is what it is - it's not 'stereotypes', it's not culturally determined.

NotBadConsidering · 12/02/2019 08:29

“Intersex People”

What does that even mean? Intersex disorders or DSD are a wide ranging heterogeneous group of disorders caused by a range of different reasons resulting in a range of different problems.

YOU are forcing these people into your “intersex people” stereotype.

JaxintheBlue · 12/02/2019 08:29

Erol; you make a better point;
& thank you for agreeing that intersex people should not be forced into sex assignment.

But do you not believe that they will always be forced into a sex assignment as long as we only allow for two sexes?
If you tell somebody Their sex is a disorder.... they will always be treated as such? Rather than validated & respected as an intersex person; whom would be free to discover how this relates to their gender identity?

dragoning · 12/02/2019 08:31

JaxintheBlue
You condemn thousands of intersex babies to gender surgeries/ forced sex identification at both; rather than the respect the child is of a third ((/6) sex.

No, I am quite aware of intersex campaigning around leaving intersex babies' genitals alone and fully support those campaigns. I also know that intersex organisations do not promote the idea that intersex people belong to a fictional third sex.

Also, many intersex organisations have specifically asked to be left out of discussions on gender. Since this is irrelevant to intersex issues.

JaxintheBlue · 12/02/2019 08:32

I have to do the school run... it’s difficult to write with the kids jumping up at me....

Can I just ask if any of you have ever queried your sex, or known anybody born intersex, or is this all just arguments of your theory?

R0wantrees · 12/02/2019 08:34

Recent Radio 4 'More Or Less' fact check on misleading claims about 'Intersex'

"The BBC reports that as many as 1.7% of the world have intersex traits. Tim Harford speaks to an expert in the field, endocrinologist Dr Bernard Khoo about why that number is too high."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3482851-More-or-Less-Radio-4-now-prevalence-of-intersex

worth listening to

Ribosomes · 12/02/2019 08:34

Why does conflating sex and gender matter to me?

Well, we have places for women, separated by sex, from men. And we have these places for safety and to protect the privacy and dignity of people. Because sex is a thing.

Gender is a social construct. You list 6 genders. I don't think you should stop there. There are probably as many genders as there are people on the planet. On any given day, I might move through them if I change from wearing docs and an over shirt and slap on some lippy and wear a posh frock. But that's all just window dressing. I'm still a woman, my sex is unchanged.

Gender, to my mind, is a harmful straitjacketing of people into categories that most never fit. So do away with gender and be whoever you want to be. Accepting gender, to me, is saying that being a woman is based on performing a set of stereotypes (and the same for men btw) and I think that is deeply harmful.

If you conflate sex and gender then the protections that women have fought for, based on their sex, will go. And yes, not all MTF people are sex offenders or a threat to women. But neither are all men, and we still need the overarching protection. That's why we had separate spaces based on sex in the first place.

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 08:38

^I’m happy to just disagree with you;
I believe that intersex people are a ‘sex’ in themselves; and are not a disorder or dysfunction.^

Why? Aside from the inaccuracy, I realise it suits your gender ideology, but that's not how many intersex people see themselves.

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 08:40

Without ever listening or taking into fully consideration the intersex people’s views

As you are failing to do. I promise you, not all intersex people want to be coopted into gender identity sophistry.

AyeRobot · 12/02/2019 08:40

Who gestated your kids, JaxintheBlue?

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 08:42

But that's all just window dressing. I'm still a woman, my sex is unchanged.

This. "Gender" is meaningless in terms of sex.

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 08:45

Can I just ask if any of you have ever queried your sex, or known anybody born intersex, or is this all just arguments of your theory?

You're the one with the dubious theory here. And yes, I've spoken to several intersex people about this.

dragoning · 12/02/2019 08:45

Can I just ask if any of you have ever queried your sex
Why is this relevant?

or known anybody born intersex
Two people with DSDs. One of whom suffered significant MH problems as an adult due to inappropriate treatment as a child.

Ribosomes did they deconstruct the claim that intersex is as prevalent as people with ginger hair? Forgetting that only people in a small part of the world have ginger hair and applying that regional percentage to the world's population...

NotBadConsidering · 12/02/2019 08:47

Can I just ask if any of you have ever queried your sex, or known anybody born intersex, or is this all just arguments of your theory?

Can you please stop talking about intersex as though it’s a single entity? I know many people with a number of different diagnoses that come under the broad term of intersex or DSD. Boys with DSD, girls with DSD. Can you be more specific about which type of disorder you’d like to know if any of us know?

Ottercup · 12/02/2019 08:47

Jax, intersex people are not a third sex. They have no function as a third sex, they are a mixture of two, they have disorders of sexual development. Intersex disorders are sex specific. That does not mean we support them being surgically altered at birth. Confused

dragoning · 12/02/2019 08:48

Can you please stop talking about intersex as though it’s a single entity

You're right, Notbadconsidering. I have been guilty of using this as shorthand and will stop.

SnarkyGorgon · 12/02/2019 08:49

jax I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with Kleinfelter (XXY) which is surprisingly common among men and often goes undiagnosed until, like my friend, the subject of children comes up. So while he is struggling with coming to terms with lifelong testosterone injections and the knowledge that he and his wife will never conceive without a sperm donor, should I tell him he’s not really a man at all, but part of some third ‘other’ sex?! You do not speak for intersex people, they are not hypothetical constructs to help bolster your arguments, they are real people and their conditions have real, lifelong implications. How dare you try to strip my friend of his masculinity whilst he’s already in so much emotional pain.

Ribosomes · 12/02/2019 08:58

My understanding of the intersex/red hair thing was that a lot of things were counted as intersex that are really not what people would think of as intersex. Like Hypospadias and I think they pushed it to include polycystic ovaries (am happy to be corrected if this is not the case.)

Other conditions like Klinefelter's and Turner's involve people who have chromosomal abnormalities but who are still recognisably male and female. .

The numbers of people who have both male and female germinal tissue are very, very rare. I've seen figures quoted of one in a million. Again I am happy to be corrected.

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 08:59

No I don't think that particular figure includes PCOS, but there have been others that do.

Ottercup · 12/02/2019 09:07

Also if you are from a country with a high percentage of red heads, you will be skewed into thinking the percentage represents a higher proportion that it does, iyswim.

ATailofTwoKitties · 12/02/2019 09:07

What do you mean by 'I am non-binary', Jax, given that you are female?

What is the effect, in your personal life and way of living it?

How does it differ from being a bog-standard female person with a range of interests?

Lolasaurous · 12/02/2019 09:35

Lol no. I'm sick of this lie, or misunderstanding. There are 2 sexes. I can't believe it's even a debate. I see this junk being spread on social media by people who clearly know nothing about biology, and have just discovered these karyotypes, and for some reason think/really want to believe they are different sexes, and for some reason think it's a helpful argument on behalf of transgender people.

These people should have studied biology, to learn from a biology teacher, scientist or doctor, not a quack, and not social media retweets, tumblr posts, and unqualified, pandering, manipulating or desperate people who need help. They think they discovered these chromosomal conditions only now, and think they are sexes? Lol. I learned about it like a decade ago in A Level Biology. They aren't sexes.

"X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) -FEMALE
XX – Most common form of female - FEMALE
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) - MALE
XY – Most common form of male - MALE
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people - MALE (Jacobs syndrome)
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births -MALE

"

These are conditions that affect either Males or Females. They aren't 'sexes '.
Turner syndrome is a condition that affects females.
Klienfelter syndrome is a condition that affects males.

Turner s is not a sex, it's a syndrome
Kleinfelters is not a sex, it's a syndrome

Etc.

If there is a Y chromosome, your sex chromosomes are genetically male, doesn't matter how many X you have. If no Y chromosomes, your sex chromosomes are genetically female, doesn't matter how many X you got.
This I remember clear as day in a level, from my biology phD educated biology teacher. Not a desperate teenager on Tumblr or twitter. A mutation or syndrome or a problem during the development of the sex, doesn't change that. Just because something has a lot of retweets or shares doesn't make it true.

And this has nothing to do with 'gender', or being transgender, anyway.
And btw, there are other affects that you'd notice.
and Males with Kleinfelter syndrome if treated are treated with testosterone and females with Turner syndrome are treated with human growth hormones and estrogen replacement therapy.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/genetics/
www.nhs.uk/conditions/turner-syndrome/
www.nhs.uk/conditions/klinefelters-syndrome/
www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/encyclopaedia/k/article/klinefelterssyndrome/
www.medlife.com/web/klinefelter-syndrome-xxy-syndrome-causes-symptoms-treatment/
e.g. "Klinefelter Syndrome (a.k.a XXY Syndrome) is a chromosomal abnormality that affects only males."

btw for Jacobs syndrome, this is all it is
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
"XYY syndrome is a genetic condition in which a male has an extra Y chromosome.[1] Symptoms are usually few.[3] They may include being taller than average, acne, and an increased risk of learning problems.[1][3] The person is generally otherwise normal, including normal fertility. "
The condition is generally not inherited from a person's parents but rather occurs as a result of a random event during sperm cell development"
47,XYY is not inherited, but usually occurs as a random event during the formation of sperm cells. An incident in chromosome separation during anaphase II (of meiosis II) called nondisjunction can result in sperm cells with an extra copy of the Y-chromosome. If one of these atypical sperm cells contributes to the genetic makeup of a child, the child will have an extra Y-chromosome in each of the body's cells.[21]

In some cases, the addition of an extra Y-chromosome results from nondisjunction during cell division during a post-zygotic mitosis in early embryonic development. This can produce 46,XY/47,XYY"

Trousering · 12/02/2019 09:37

How does it differ from being a bog-standard female person with a range of interests

It doesn't.

NotBadConsidering · 12/02/2019 09:41

Lolasaurous

Star
Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 09:42

Yes thank you Lol

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