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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joshua Kennon? More than two sexes...

100 replies

JamPasty · 11/02/2019 22:18

I'm sorry wise women - I know you've answered this before, but can I find the threads; can I buggery.

Two mates on Facebook are trying to tell me there are several sexes, based on this article:

www.joshuakennon.com/the-six-common-biological-sexes-in-humans/

I'm assuming Kennon's mixing up intersex with sex, but has anyone managed to explain the difference in a simple non-argument starting way? The people posting this article are people I care about and don't want to hurt, plus maybe I can convince them. So far I've just said I think Kennon's mixing up sex and intersex.

PS - can we start a thread with nice simple argument points for use by people like me who are as erudite as sponge puddings when it comes to this sort of thing? Thanks!

OP posts:
Lolasaurous · 12/02/2019 09:43

@ottercup interesting, but anyway, those XY people, who aren't part of the alleged "six sexes" discussion anyway, as you know and would still be genetically male according to their sex chromosomes. They have a defect in their androgen receptor gene so have androgen insensitivity in some cells, so their biology didn't develop as it should have.

Yet they still have testes, and no internal female organs, so confused if their SRY gene works normally because isn't this the part in the Y chromosome that initiates the male sex determination of of foetal development. I'm confused because TDF (testis-development factor) is encoded by SRY, these XY males with androgen insensitivity, in some cases with complete androgen insensitivity these ones phenotypically female on the outside (Not all of them have the outer appearance/phenotype of female, there are different levels, some have normal male phenotype, some have mild condition, yes some have female outer appearance the ones with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

"AIS is differentiated according to the degree of genital masculinization: complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) when the external genitalia is that of a normal female, mild androgen insensitivity syndrome (MAIS) when the external genitalia is that of a normal male, and partial androgen insensitivity syndrome (PAIS) when the external genitalia is partially, but not fully masculinized"

"Clinical phenotypes in these individuals range from a normal male habitus (body shape) with mild spermatogenic defect or reduced secondary terminal hair, to a full female habitus (body shape), despite the presence of a Y-chromosome")
Anyway, so the confusion I have is, SRY gene or TDF? ( and I have trouble understanding/separating the two) "SRY gene effects normally take place 6–8 weeks after foetus formation and inhibits the female anatomical structural growth in males. It also works towards developing the dominant male characteristics." So no it can't be working properly, or maybe 'some of it' is/isnt. ?? Or maybe it's talking about internal female anatomical structural growth. But the vagina? Ah wait I found that Sertoli cells of the testes secret anti-Müllerian hormone - AMH is activated by SOX9 in the Sertoli cells of the male fetus.[4] Its expression inhibits the development of the female reproductive tract, or Müllerian ducts (paramesonephric ducts), in the male embryo, thereby arresting the development of fallopian tubes, uterus, and upper vagina"
So, this is why they have a shallow vagina not an upper one (and sometimes not really one at all) I seem once describe d as a dimple !?

Oh wait

"Human embryos develop similarly for the first six weeks, regardless of genetic sex (46,XX or 46,XY karyotype); the only way to tell the difference between 46,XX or 46,XY embryos during this time period is to look for Barr bodies or a Y chromosome.[79] The gonads begin as bulges of tissue called the genital ridges at the back of the abdominal cavity, near the midline. By the fifth week, the genital ridges differentiate into an outer cortex and an inner medulla, and are called indifferent gonads.[79] By the sixth week, the indifferent gonads begin to differentiate according to genetic sex. If the karyotype is 46,XY, testes develop due to the influence of the Y chromosome’s SRY gene.[53][54] This process does not require the presence of androgen, nor a functional androgen receptor.[53][54]

Until around the seventh week of development, the embryo has indifferent sex accessory ducts, which consist of two pairs of ducts: the Müllerian ducts and the Wolffian ducts.[79] Sertoli cells within the testes secrete anti-Müllerian hormone around this time to suppress the development of the Müllerian ducts, and cause their degeneration.[79] Without this anti-Müllerian hormone, the Müllerian ducts develop into the female internal genitalia (uterus, cervix, fallopian tubes, and upper vaginal barrel).[79] Unlike the Müllerian ducts, the Wolffian ducts will not continue to develop by default.[80] In the presence of testosterone and functional androgen receptors, the Wolffian ducts develop into the epididymides, vasa deferentia, and seminal vesicles.[79] If the testes fail to secrete testosterone, or the androgen receptors do not function properly, the Wolffian ducts degenerate.[81]

male genitalia do not develop properly.[82][83][84][85][86] As is the case with the internal male genitalia, a functional androgen receptor is needed for dihydrotestosterone to regulate the transcription of target genes involved in development.[73]

Pathogenesis of AIS
Mutations in the androgen receptor gene can cause problems with any of the steps involved in androgenization, from the synthesis of the androgen receptor protein itself, through the transcriptional ability of the dimerized, androgen-AR complex.[3] AIS can result if even one of these steps is significantly disrupted, as each step is required for androgens to activate the AR successfully and regulate gene expression.[3] Exactly which steps a particular mutation will impair can be predicted, to some extent, by identifying the area of the AR in which the mutation resides. This predictive ability is primarily retrospective in origin; the different functional domains of the AR gene have been elucidated by analyzing the effects of specific mutations in different regions of the AR.[3] For example, mutations in the steroid binding domain have been known to affect androgen binding affinity or retention, mutations in the hinge region have been known to affect nuclear translocation, mutations in the DNA-binding domain have been known to affect dimerization and binding to target DNA, and mutations in the transactivation domain have been known to affect target gene transcription regulation.[3][80] Unfortunately, even when the affected functional domain is known, predicting the phenotypical consequences of a particular mutation (see Correlation of genotype and phenotype) is difficult.

Some mutations can adversely impact more than one functional domain. For example, a mutation in one functional domain can have deleterious effects on another by altering the way in which the domains interact.[80] A single mutation can affect all downstream functional domains if a premature stop codon or framing error results; such a mutation can result in a completely unusable (or unsynthesizable) androgen receptor protein.[3] The steroid binding domain is particularly vulnerable to the effects of a premature stop codon or framing error, since it occurs at the end of the gene, and its information is thus more likely to be truncated or misinterpreted than other functional domains.[3]

Other, more complex relationships have been observed as a consequence of mutated AR; some mutations associated with male phenotypes have been linked to male breast cancer, prostate cancer, or in the case of spinal and bulbar muscular atrophy, disease of the central nervous system.[9][23][87][88][89] The form of breast cancer seen in some men with PAIS is caused by a mutation in the AR's DNA-binding domain.[87][89] This mutation is thought to cause a disturbance of the AR's target gene interaction that allows it to act at certain additional targets, possibly in conjunction with the estrogen receptor protein, to cause cancerous growth.[3] The pathogenesis of spinal and bulbar muscular atrophy (SBMA) demonstrates that even the mutant AR protein itself can result in pathology. The trinucleotide repeat expansion of the polyglutamine tract of the AR gene that is associated with SBMA results in the synthesis of a misfolded AR protein that the cell fails to proteolyze and disperse properly.[90] These misfolded AR proteins form aggregates in the cell cytoplasm and nucleus.[90] Over the course of 30 to 50 years, these aggregates accumulate and have a cytotoxic effect, eventually resulting in the neurodegenerative symptoms associated with SBMA

AR mutations
As of 2010, over 400 AR mutations have been reported in the AR mutation database, and the number continues to grow.[2] Inheritance is typically maternal and follows an X-linked recessive pattern;[1][39] individuals with a 46,XY karyotype always express the mutant gene since they have only one X chromosome, whereas 46,XX carriers are minimally affected. About 30% of the time, the AR mutation is a spontaneous result, and is not inherited.[10] Such de novo mutations are the result of a germ cell mutation or germ cell mosaicism in the gonads of one of the parents, or a mutation in the fertilized egg itself.[40] In one study,[41] three of eight de novo mutations occurred in the postzygotic stage, leading to the estimate that up to one-third of de novo mutations result in somatic mosaicism.[1] Not every mutation of the AR gene results in androgen insensitivity; one particular mutation occurs in 8 to 14% of genetic males,[42][43][44][45] and is thought to adversely affect only a small number of individuals when other genetic factors are present.[46]

Other causes
Some individuals with CAIS or PAIS do not have any AR mutations despite clinical, hormonal, and histological features sufficient to warrant an AIS diagnosis; up to 5% of women with CAIS do not have an AR mutation,[2] as well as between 27[6][47] and 72%[48] of individuals with PAIS.

In one patient, the underlying cause for presumptive PAIS was a mutant steroidogenic factor-1 (SF-1) protein.[49] In another patient, CAIS was the result of a deficit in the transmission of a transactivating signal from the N-terminal region of the normal androgen receptor to the basal transcription machinery of the cell.[50] A coactivator protein interacting with the activation function 1 (AF-1) transactivation domain of the androgen receptor may have been deficient in this patient.[50] The signal disruption could not be corrected by supplementation with any coactivators known at the time, nor was the absent coactivator protein characterized, which left some in the field unconvinced that a mutant coactivator would explain the mechanism of androgen resistance in CAIS or PAIS patients with a normal AR gene.[1] "

Correlation of genotype and phenotype
Individuals with partial AIS, unlike those with the complete or mild forms, present at birth with ambiguous genitalia, and the decision to raise the child as male or female is often not obvious.[1][40][61] Unfortunately, little information regarding phenotype can be gleaned from precise knowledge of the AR mutation itself; the same AR mutation may cause significant variation in the degree of masculinization in different individuals, even among members of the same family.[1][39][52][62][63][64][65][66][67][68] Exactly what causes this variation is not entirely understood, although factors contributing to it could include the lengths of the polyglutamine and polyglycine tracts,[69] sensitivity to and variations in the intrauterine endocrine milieu,[52] the effect of coregulatory proteins active in Sertoli cells,[21][70] somatic mosaicism,[1] expression of the 5RD2 gene in genital skin fibroblasts,[62] reduced AR transcription and translation from factors other than mutations in the AR coding region,[71] an unidentified coactivator protein,[50] enzyme deficiencies such as 21-hydroxylase deficiency,[4] or other genetic variations such as a mutant steroidogenic factor-1 protein.[49] The degree of variation, however, does not appear to be constant across all AR mutations, and is much more extreme in some.[1][4][46][52] Missense mutations that result in a single amino acid substitution are known to produce the most phenotypic diversity"

If we getting this deep might as well post this but pay close attention. This all starts from something going wrong with a sperm cell, causing the SRY gene to transfer from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome which it's not supposed to which causes lots of problems for the hypothetical offspring who inherit these defective genes.

"Embryos are gonadally identical, regardless of genetic sex, until a certain point in development when the testis-determining factor causes male sex organs to develop. Therefore, SRY plays an important role in sex determination. A typical male karyotype is XY. Individuals who inherit a normal Y chromosome and multiple X chromosomes are still male (such as in Klinefelter syndrome, which has an XXY karyotype). Atypical genetic recombination during crossover when a sperm cell is developing can result in karyotypes that do not match their phenotypic expression.

Most of the time, when a developing sperm cell undergoes crossover during its meiosis, the SRY gene stays on the Y chromosome. If it is transferred to the X chromosome, however, the resulting Y chromosome will not have an SRY gene and can no longer initiate testis development. Offspring which inherit this Y chromosome will have Swyer syndrome, characterized by an XY karyotype and a female phenotype. The X chromosome that results from this crossover event now has a SRY gene, and therefore the ability to initiate testis development. Offspring who inherit this X chromosome will have a condition called XX male syndrome, characterized by an XX karyotype, and a male phenotype. While most XX males develop testis, it is possible for them to experience incomplete differentiation resulting in the formation of both testicular and ovarian tissues in the same individual. XX male syndrome results in infertility, most likely caused by the inactivation (either random or non-random) of the X chromosome containing the SRY in some cells.[16]

While the presence or absence of SRY has generally determined whether or not testis development occurs, it has been suggested that there are other factors that affect the functionality of SRY.[17] Therefore, there are individuals who have the SRY gene, but still develop as females, either because the gene itself is defective or mutated, or because one of the contributing factors is defective.[18] This can happen in individuals exhibiting a XY, XXY, or XX SRY-positive karyotype."

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor

Lots of things can happen with genetics. Mutations, defects, missing genes, extra genes. Some could affect transgender individuals we don't know, it hasn't been found yet. If trans people say research is transphobic and don't participate, it will never be found. There are still two sexes. That's how the human population reproduces.
People with down syndrome or other genetic conditions are still human beings and wonderful, like my cousin, not a different species.

JaesseJexaMaipru · 12/02/2019 09:43

Correctly naming a scientific phenomon as a disorder is not a value judgement. It does not imply that the person is less than fully human. It does not mean that the person should be forced into surgery or forced to conform to any gender stereotype.

@JaxintheBlue your straw men are not holding together. You are making up crazy statements that no one here has asserted, and arguing against those rather than engaging with the points people are making.

If I understand you correctly - you are an individual who has functioning female biology but who does not identify with the regressive gender stereotypes associated with femininity. You therefore choose to describe yourself as non-binary. For thousands of women on this site, we are pretty much the same. We have female biology. We reject gender stereotypes as sexism. You and we are very similar. We call ourselves women rather than non binary because we recognise that our oppression by the patriarchy is on the basis of our biology, not on the basis of the extent to which we identify with stereotypes. We further recognise that gender stereotypes are harmful to all women, not just a special few.

Conflating the situation of intersex people with the ideological position of trans people is spectacularly unhelpful and organisations for intersex people repeatedly ask for this conflation to stop. There is very very little overlap between trans people and intersex people. However, both intersex people and people with gender dysphoria would have much easier lives if we had a more gender-free culture. Trans ideology entrenches and promotes sexist gender stereotypes as if they were factual and immutable, which is the opposite of this. That harms everyone.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/02/2019 09:53

X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) - women with Turner syndrome
XX – Most common form of female - just female
XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) men with Klinefelter syndrome
XY – Most common form of male / just male
XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people Male
XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 birth Male

He’s missed some. You can get higher ploidies of each sex chromosome too.

Women with Turner syndrome are women. He’s confusing sex chromosome ploidy anomalies with sexes. He’s either not very bright, not very educated or deliberately pushing the idea.

A sex produces a unique gamete. That’s what a sex IS. There are two in humans, Male and female. The examples above are just extra or missing sex chromosomes, not extra sexes.

Bowlofbabelfish · 12/02/2019 09:59

Can I just ask if any of you have ever queried your sex, or known anybody born intersex, or is this all just arguments of your theory?

I’m a geneticist. 23 years experience. So yes I have met, studied and had the privilege of working with cell lines and tissues kindly donated by people with intersex conditions.

There are two human sexes jax. There are a number of sex chromosome abnormalities as well. But they aren’t extra sexes.

If you think they are extra sexes can I ask what you think people with extra autosomes are? Human ? Or a different species? Because saying an X0 female is a different sex is basically like saying someone with Down syndrome or Edwards syndrome is a different species. And that, obviously, isn’t true. They’re just humans with a phenotype arising from abnormality in chromosome segregation

Lolasaurous · 12/02/2019 09:59

whoops something went wrong.

Missed some stuff out about androgen insensitivity syndrome in previous post.

"Human embryos develop similarly for the first six weeks, regardless of genetic sex (46,XX or 46,XY karyotype); the only way to tell the difference between 46,XX or 46,XY embryos during this time period is to look for Barr bodies or a Y chromosome.[79] The gonads begin as bulges of tissue called the genital ridges at the back of the abdominal cavity, near the midline. By the fifth week, the genital ridges differentiate into an outer cortex and an inner medulla, and are called indifferent gonads.[79] By the sixth week, the indifferent gonads begin to differentiate according to genetic sex. If the karyotype is 46,XY, testes develop due to the influence of the Y chromosome’s SRY gene.[53][54] This process does not require the presence of androgen, nor a functional androgen receptor.[53][54]

Until around the seventh week of development, the embryo has indifferent sex accessory ducts, which consist of two pairs of ducts: the Müllerian ducts and the Wolffian ducts.[79] Sertoli cells within the testes secrete anti-Müllerian hormone around this time to suppress the development of the Müllerian ducts, and cause their degeneration.[79] Without this anti-Müllerian hormone, the Müllerian ducts develop into the female internal genitalia (uterus, cervix, fallopian tubes, and upper vaginal barrel).[79] Unlike the Müllerian ducts, the Wolffian ducts will not continue to develop by default.[80] In the presence of testosterone and functional androgen receptors, the Wolffian ducts develop into the epididymides, vasa deferentia, and seminal vesicles.[79] If the testes fail to secrete testosterone, or the androgen receptors do not function properly, the Wolffian ducts degenerate.[81]

Missed this part:

Masculinization of the male external genitalia (the penis, penile urethra, and scrotum), as well as the prostate, are dependent on the androgen dihydrotestosterone.[82][83][84][85] Testosterone is converted into dihydrotestosterone by the 5-alpha reductase enzyme.[86] If this enzyme is absent or deficient, then dihydrotestosterone is not created, and the external

For some reason it just cut to this in previous post.

"male genitalia do not develop properly.[82][83][84][85][86] As is the case with the internal male genitalia, a functional androgen receptor is needed for dihydrotestosterone to regulate the transcription of target genes involved in development.[73]"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

dunno if I missed/messed up anything else

Trousering · 12/02/2019 10:02

Actually I've remembered the difference with non binary, it's the patronising tone with which they address the assumed binary plebiscite. This tone usually accompanies inaccurate pontificating and junk science, which when not immediately lauded as fascinating news by the audience, is followed up with insults. Today's insult of choice was asshole.

dragoning · 12/02/2019 10:04

Re. non binary. If forced to choose a gender pigeonhole I suppose this would be the one I'd go for. It's difficult to believe that anybody 100 percent conforms to masculine/feminine sex stereotypes.

MillytantForceit · 12/02/2019 10:09

Welcome to the post-truth world of Planet Bullshit.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/02/2019 10:11

'Non-binary' often seems to mean rejecting gender stereotypes for yourself.
'Gender critical' means rejecting the whole concept of gender stereotypes.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 12/02/2019 10:17

It's difficult to believe that anybody 100 percent conforms to masculine/feminine sex stereotypes.

Indeed, especially because moving a few miles could mean they no longer conform 100%, because stereotypes are different depending upon the society you are in.

The female "stereotype" where I live is different to the one 3 miles away. In fact, the female stereotype in my street is different depending on your age.

R0wantrees · 12/02/2019 10:24

Peach Yoghurt Youtube

"Are Punk, Gothic and Non Binary signs of the times? Decide for yourself!"

R0wantrees · 12/02/2019 10:27

Peach Yoghurt Youtube

'10 Beautiful Gender Non-Conforming Women'

R0wantrees · 12/02/2019 10:29

Peach Yoghurt YouTube:

'Why Some Girls Don't Want To Be Women'

LuggsaysNotaWomen · 12/02/2019 10:30

Fertile human beings make one of two gametes; sperm or ova. That’s it.

It’s very boring and normal but there it is. Every single person who is or has ever been is the product of the smooshing together (technical term) of a male and female gamete. And 100% of them gestated inside a female body. No exceptions.

When there is a third way of producing human beings, then there will be third sex.

Unfortunately no one gets a starring role in The Reproductive Specialness Show. Dull as that is.

Bittermints · 12/02/2019 10:51

What an interesting thread. For some reason, I often find myself thinking of the Dunning Kruger effect when this topic comes up and someone struts in saying 'You just don't understand this stuff!' in the teeth of biologists and doctors trying to explain the science.

What I find particularly galling is being accused of reducing women to their genitals if you dare to say that being a woman is just a matter of having female biology. That's like saying observing someone is tall is reducing them to their height. I am female because I have female biology. That's it. Having female biology has had major implications for how my life has gone, but a lot of that has been because of sexism, not just the particular effects of having a female body. I'm sure if I'd been extremely short I'd have had problems and a lot of that would have been because of heightism.

Trousering · 12/02/2019 11:11

Jax has started another thread, clearly the interwaffle strategy failed to win over any one so its now rainbows.

dragoning · 12/02/2019 11:16

I love that '10 beautiful gender non conforming women' video. Peach is so positive and joyful about how women are fine, just as they are.

MagicMix · 12/02/2019 11:26

Surely the only reason sexual dimorphism exists in any species is because of sexual reproduction. How could there be a sex class of people that didn't have the potential to fulfill either the male or female role in sexual reproduction? There are only two roles in sexual reproduction and therefore there are only two sexes - I can't see any justification for another definition of sex, even though not everyone on the planet is fertile.

BettyDuMonde · 12/02/2019 11:26

Can I just ask if any of you have ever queried your sex

Haven’t had time to - menstruation commenced age 11, had an abortion aged 14, first child at 23, watched my mother die of ovarian cancer 3 years later, 2nd child at 35, breastfed for over 5 years in total and had genetic testing for BRCA in my 40s.
Luckily of my two X chromosomes, the one I inherited from my mother did not carry her ovarian cancer causing gene fault.
Biological sex really isn’t the great mystery some people pretend it is.

I’m also a redhead, btw. It’s got fuck all to do with disorders of sexual development. Autism spectrum disorder is also a ‘disorder’ - doesn’t mean ASD people aren’t wonderful and valid, stop getting hung up on the ‘disorder’ word, it’s just a medical term.

Lolasaurous · 12/02/2019 11:42

*have androgen insensitivity in some cells

I think this was meant to be "some or all cells"

? Ah wait I found that Sertoli cells of the testes secret anti-Müllerian hormone - AMH is activated by SOX9 in the Sertoli cells of the male fetus.[4] Its expression inhibits the development of the female reproductive tract, or Müllerian ducts (paramesonephric ducts), in the male embryo, thereby arresting the development of fallopian tubes, uterus, and upper vagina"

So yeah this is in normal male development and also happens in androgen insensitive males. And I put it in because it mentions AMH from the testes prevents development of an "upper vagina" ? ? Since some androgen insensitive males can have some type of a shallow "vaginal cavity". Whether it's really a vagina... I don't know.

"So, this is why they (androgen insensitive males) have a shallow vagina not an upper one"

Ah man this wasnt written well, just sounds weird , "not an upper one" , didn't mean to write that like that, I'm gonna go now...lol
What exactly that would be and why that's not stopped from developing, or is caused to develop why/how?
Just trying to work out what is developing down there and why/how exactly?
Androgens and sensitivity to androgens is required to develop the external male genitalia and prostate. I'm trying to find out more about , the exact science of what I guess is a "shallow vaginal cavity" in androgen insensitivity syndrome XY , is it just what happens because they don't have the androgens/androgen sensitivity to develop the outer male genitalia, this just happens as the default and what is supposed to kick in at 6-8 weeks doesn't?
ah well will stop posting now...
I have been up all night working, and we have an actual geneticist on this thread now so...
And this thread isn't even about this.
Sorry.

Oh and to make it clear, the part beginning in previous post

"If we getting this deep might as well post this but pay close attention. This all starts from something going wrong with a sperm cell, causing the SRY gene to transfer from the Y chromosome to the X chromosome which it's not supposed to which causes lots of problems for the hypothetical offspring who inherit these defective genes...."

Is not about androgen insensitivity syndrome. It's something else. If I didn't make it clear enough. I should have separated it and said "the following" , not "this"

I'm really going now, sorrrrrry

Ereshkigal · 12/02/2019 11:52

What an interesting thread. For some reason, I often find myself thinking of the Dunning Kruger effect when this topic comes up and someone struts in saying 'You just don't understand this stuff!' in the teeth of biologists and doctors trying to explain the science.

Indeed.

JamPasty · 12/02/2019 11:54

Can I just say I love you all. Thank you!

OP posts:
BettyDuMonde · 12/02/2019 12:03

Name change midthread?

BettyDuMonde · 12/02/2019 12:06

Apologies - false accusation Jam. - should probably quit the day-drinking Gin 😬😂

Noqont · 12/02/2019 12:08

There are only two sexes. Male. And female. Even intersex conditions are still either male or female.

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