The Big Questions on now - is feminism in crisis?

[Lefty99]

To be discussed as next topic. BBC1.

Clearly we do.

Along side adult human female.

I just had to google exactly what women's liberation was

This helped. I don't trust Wikipedia any more.

www.thoughtco.com/womens-liberation-movement-3528926

I'm beginning to think we should go back to Women's Lib

This. Or Women's Rights. I'm happy to be a WRA.

Max Blumberg talks a load of shite.

Feminism is for females. Feminism has been colonised by men - because women are never allowed to have something of their own.

Lovely to hear Sheila though, as always.

Is it just me though; I get a bit edgy now when anyone says 'equality of the sexes?'

I thought I understood equality till I heard the phrase "treating people equally does not mean treating them the same." Then I realised I didn't.

I've heard too many women arguing that they don't believe in feminism because they believe in equality more. Equality of the sexes. But equality sometimes doesn't take into account contexts and meaningful differences, especially when its 'top down treatment.' Which is what many people think of, for example, equal pay or access to certain facilities.

equality

NOUN

	1
mass noun The state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities.
‘an organization aiming to promote racial equality’

equity
/ˈɛkwɪti/
noun
1 1. 
the quality of being fair and impartial."equity of treatment"
2 synonyms:
3 fairness, fair-mindedness, justness, justice, equitableness, fair play; More

I enjoyed listening to Dr Finn McKay and agreed with a lot of what she said (eg about the sex industry not being a charity to support people on low wages - they're out for themselves. Solutions include tackling poverty etc).

I came across her before and couldn't work out what her stance is on trans issues. I still couldn't! Does anyone know?

woolysocks Finn signed a letter 4 years ago or so which argued in favour of debate over trans issues so some call her a transphobe. She has had a bit of a backtrack since but is still a radical feminist and fights against male violence. She is however pro trans people as a group. She also points out that gender non-conforming women like her face a lot of prejudice from women for ‘looking like men’.

I have read some really good pieces by Dr Finn about gender stereotypes and the effect on young children.

I've seen others be quite dismissive of her, but not quite sure what it's based on.

I was a bit baffled when Dr Finn tweeted this. Seemed very odd for someone who is so aware of male violence.

Bluestitch i agree and I think she has been backtracking a bit or at least fudging the issues. It’s true though that most male violence is perpetrated in the home and that the risk from someone next to you in a closed cublicle is minimal compared to the risk from a male partner in your own home.

Yes I just found the idea that if you consent to sharing intimate space with one man (who you know) then what is the issue with other men, very odd.

Dr Finn also supports transwomen on all women shortlists I believe, not sure of her position on self ID.

Blue yes and it’s not just about safety bit about privacy and dignity too.
I think she argues that since sexual characteristics can be altered by surgery that someone who has had a medical transition should be classed as the opposite sex. I am not 100% sure of her views re self ID.

She seems sympathetic to self ID.

Just checked. She doesn’t have an issue with self-ID as the Equality Act doesn’t just cover those with a GRC anyway.

Cross-post
As I said before she did sign an open letter with a load of GC feminists a few years ago. Maybe she regrets it now.

I remember when I complained to the beeb about having sophie cook (a male) discussing the 'womxn' thing on news night with a male presenter.

my email basically said '2 males discussing what women get to call themselves - really the beeb?'

I got back a bewildered reply about what an interesting broadcaster sophie is, and what 'she' added to the debate

which just goes to show that if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism

and then you have a male advocate for extreme porn on a TV show claiming to be a feminist. so they're still at it

i'll be complaining again. I've come to the conclusion that the BBC are actually quite easily led - they'll do whatever looks easiest. putting males on tv who claim to speak for women needs to be the awkward choice

From thread discussing September 2018 Jane Fae's Transactivism conference 'We're Still Here' (keynot speaker Dawn Butler MP shadow Women& Equalities)

OP TheHarpySings wrote
"Hi all

First off, I’m a regular poster, have been here for years under various usernames, it I’m posting here on a name change as I don’t want this traced to me.

On 8th September there was a conference held in London a Bloomsbury Baptist Church which was called We’re Still Here, which featured a variety of panels and workshops and was attended by many prominent people in the pro-GRA reform camp.

I decided to attend to find out what was being said as it was clear that they did not want anyone to attend that wasn’t a TRA or an ally.

What follows are my notes from the day.
(extract)
4) Equalities Act

So… there was a kind of informal meeting during lunchtime about The Equalities Act which was being run by everyone’s favourite advocate for extreme porn, Jane Fae. Edward Lord turned up, straight from a meeting with the City of London Corp. PlEASE NOTE THAT FAE AND LORD DID NOT WANT THIS SECTION TWEETED.

Edward Lord. He was dressed like Tweedledum. Or, if I’m feeling generous, a Mario Brother that doesn’t get invited to Xmas dinner anymore.

Mr Lord was very bumfaced about the Andrew Gilligan article about him in July and said that opposition to the GRA consultation just wanted to “cause mayhem.” He directly mentioned the Man Friday Hampstead Pond stuff.

Apparently “there have been no incidents of men turning up to the women’s pond but Man Friday turned up to the men’s pond and demanded admission- by force if necessary.”

As of 8/9/18, 15.5k people had completed the attitudes survey.

Lord said that TW were entitled to the protected characteristic “Woman”- he said the Gov dept on woman and equalities has confirmed this. Apparently the brave and stunning vexatious litigator Giuliana Kendall has something to do with this being confirmed.

Edward Lord is worried about the 125 elected members of the London assembly or whatever the fuck Londoners have governing the city. Not all of them are onside. He is worried that all of this is going to be discussed at committee and that “terfs are going to protest”.

Jane Fae said that JF has been in contact w/ YHA and GirlGuiding. Fae is of the opinion that the law doesn’t distinguish gender and sex. They are not defined and parliament will not define them.

The TRAs are fully prepared to take local councils to court of they try to invoke EA2010 for reasons of sex. JF was nodding at Giuliana when JF said this.

James Morton (Scottish Trans Alliance) said to be “strategic about test cases to ensure strong case law”.

Edward Lord agreed. He also said that the City of London Corp city solicitor and the Chief Exec are “strong allies”.

Regards the consultation doc put out by the City of London Corp… Lord implied that they were going to go through the answers and cherry pick the the qualitative snapshots.

One of the Mermaids mums in attendance said the “banner of concerned mothers of vulnerable children shouldn’t be captured by bigots”. Lord is meeting officers about how data is presented and is “conscious of that line of argument”

Jane Fae said the GC side are spreading a myth of predatory males- which doesn’t happen (!!! Lolz Karen White). And also spreading the myth that that TW are paedophiles (Loz Karen White x2).

Then (and Fae didn’t want this tweeted) apparently, there ARE terrible people exploiting The Equalities Act. And they are…

Man Friday
We Need To Talk
Fair Play for Women

According to Fae, all of the above have broken laws and engaged in upskirting and crotch shots of TW. Fae talked about debating Amy Desir of Man Friday about refuges. Amy talked about how female socialisation essentially stops us from refusing TW in our spaces.

JF then asked people not to tweet this next bit because it is libellous: Amy Desir took her husband into the Next changing rooms to commit voyeurism.
Fae (shouting): “Who is the pervert now?!!”

JF hopes that Amy and Man Friday are prosecuted." (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

Independent article about conference:
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/dawn-butler-transgender-uk-labour-intersectionality-rights-a8534761.html

Someone on Twitter a few days ago told me that "feminism is as much about protecting other men from toxic masculinity and fighting racism as it is about women".

Complaint submitted (edited slightly to comply with MN modding rules)

Hello

I was somewhat surprised to see Jane Fae on The Big Questions billed as a feminist writer. Women are still under represented on television, so giving a male a platform to talk about feminism seemed at best a strange choice.

Jane Fae has been linked to the Consenting Adult Action Network, which advocates for extreme pornography (that is pornography that depicts an act which results in or is likely to result in serious injury to a person's anus, breast or genitals). Hardly a feminist view point.

Here's Jane advocating for the right of a Newcastle civil servant to publish a story depicting the members of Girls Aloud being mutilated and murdered: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/jul/01/obscenity-law-darryn-walker

Ironically for such a proponent of free speech, Jane is very much in favour of the no platforming of holders of rather more standard feminist views such as Germaine Greer and Julie Bindel. It would have been interesting at least if you had asked Jane why they advocates for extreme pornography and the no platforming of women while calling themself a feminist.

I consider Jane Fae to be a highly inappropriate choice for this slot. Please can you explain to me the reasoning behind this decision?

Regards
Bernard

blue at 14:20

Thats got to be one of the stupidest arguments ive ever heard

And thats including the 'tigers eat meat' so should humans argument i had from a friend

Someone on Twitter a few days ago told me that "feminism is as much about protecting other men from toxic masculinity and fighting racism as it is about women"

I might just have to trot round saying

Youre an idiot

Youre an idiot

That is the level of my debate.....sadly

Good message

Sorry, that was to Bernard

To be fair to Finn, she has clarified that what she meant was that the arguments that Posie is using (the right not to have penis in your space) comes from lesbian separatism and Posie is no lesbian separatist at all. There is a point about having no issue with living with a man that you have described as verbally and physically abusive and that person raising your children, but saying that someone in a cubicle next to you is the most dangerous thing your kids can be exposed to. Most danger comes from those we know.

I think Finn’s position is gender neutral single toilet cubicles with sinks and no public wash area. I think that’s a sensible idea because, as Finn has written about, all female toilets are no safe haven for gender non-conforming women like her because many women react suspiciously towards her and think she is a man.