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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids 'power couple' Hannah & Jake Graf say surrogacy laws must be changed to force women to hand over babies

246 replies

QuietContraryMary · 01/02/2019 12:18

Jake & Hannah have joined a surrogacy agency and want to rent a womb. Hannah says, however, the law should be changed to compel the rented woman to hand over the baby at birth.

www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/transgender-couple-ready-start-family-call-uk-surrogacy-law-141118630.html

OP posts:
RiotAndAlarum · 02/02/2019 15:17

And their sneering was so focused on her female body, which they were happy enough to make use of. Sickening.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 02/02/2019 15:25

Agree with so many on here - what about the rights of the child? Humans are not property.

CowGirlWoman · 02/02/2019 15:26

Ash Sarkar, Suzie Green, Dawn Butler, Maria Miller and Layla Moran don't seem quick offering to become surrogates for this couple and producing a baby each year for the trans community.

Beerflavourednipples · 02/02/2019 17:06

What happens in surrogacy if the foetus is found (for example at the 20 week scan) to have some sort of disability or life limiting condition? Or if this becomes apparent at birth?

OrchidInTheSun · 02/02/2019 18:05

From a link in Optimist's article, apparently Jeff 'I guess we won't be using her again' and partner Gage are planning a second child.

"Jeff confirmed that he and Gage are planning on having another child through IVF via a surrogate on his SiriusXM show Jeff Lewis Live earlier this month. However, he noted that they are "not pregnant yet." "We have five frozen embryos," Jeff shared. "The next baby will be Gage's embryo, and his strongest embryo is a boy. So hopefully we're gonna have a boy."

They are not pregnant?? I mean it's revolting enough when heterosexual couples say it but a gay couple who are renting a woman's uterus? Fuck off

Barracker · 02/02/2019 18:51

From now on I will be referring to this idea of changing the law so that women should be forced to hand over their wanted babies because of contractually enforced obligations as the "Rumplestiltskin Clause"

Bowlofbabelfish · 02/02/2019 18:54

The embryo is s boy?

But I thought we couldn’t tell ...?

Beerflavourednipples · 02/02/2019 19:02

"The next baby will be Gage's embryo, and his strongest embryo is a boy. So hopefully we're gonna have a boy."

How dare they assign that embryo's gender at conception. Its literal violence I'm telling you.

hipsterfun · 02/02/2019 19:12

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how gay male misogynists seem to get a free pass on the old misogyny...

Iused2BanOptimist · 02/02/2019 19:14

It hasn't even grown a penis yet Bowl Grin I wonder how they know...

Iused2BanOptimist · 02/02/2019 19:15

Barracker Excellent, I love it. The Rumplestiltskin clause.

Dothehappydance · 02/02/2019 19:18

Well a girl sperm is pink and glittery so easy to spot the boy ones.

tenbob · 02/02/2019 19:18

While I agree with a lot of what has been said on this thread, I really have to take massive objection to this:
Time needed for physical recovery should be taken as sick leave, since there is no baby to care for

If we push for this, the same logic could be applied to anyone who has a still birth or neonatal loss

WhatIsTheMeaningOfThis · 02/02/2019 19:19

The embryo is s boy?

But I thought we couldn’t tell ...?

That just says it all, doesn't it? It's like the article featuring the 'enbie' (I think) woman a few weeks ago who talked about how distressing it was to be pregnant (by choice) when you're non binary a woman She referred to the sex of her baby too.

Very revealing...

OvaHere · 02/02/2019 19:23

Lewis and Edward appear to have split up so not clear if the next baby will be happening. I suppose one might go it alone. Sounds like a bit of a mess to bring the first baby into. BandAid territory with an added dash of exploitation.

people.com/home/jeff-lewis-gage-edward-move-out/

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 02/02/2019 19:42

Rumpelstiltskin Clause is excellent.

FingonTheValiant · 02/02/2019 19:43

My cousin lost her baby at 38 weeks a couple of years ago. Fortunately no one suggested she should just take sick leave as she didn't have a baby to care for...

I'm anti surrogacy, but I don't think we should be campaigning to reduce rights to maternity leave for some people. It will be used to reduce them for everyone. Mat leave is expensive for employers after all.

OrchidInTheSun · 02/02/2019 19:47

Maternity leave is specifically for caring for a newborn. Not for any other reason, even very sad still births and late miscarriages.

justasking111 · 02/02/2019 19:49

A teacher at school adopted twice eight month old baby the first time, she received 12 months maternity leave on both occasions.

OrchidInTheSun · 02/02/2019 19:51

Oh I'm sorry that's total rubbish. A post 24 week loss triggers mat leave.

There is someone on the surrogate board who says that she has used a surrogate for 3 pregnancies because it isn't convenient for her to carry the babies. I can't see how employers can fund what is essentially a side business

Lysistrataknowsherstuff · 02/02/2019 20:18

Orchid I saw that thread and I was interested to see that a couple of surrogates said that they wouldn't carry a baby for someone just because it was inconvenient for them to have a child themselves. I have to wonder, how much more of the child's life will thy outsource as it's not convenient?

Iused2BanOptimist · 02/02/2019 20:23

Apologies. I absolutely don't want to reduce maternity rights, of course I would never suggest that someone who had a still birth was not entitled to leave.

However parts of the discussion up thread have made me think about other implications of surrogacy:

I start from the position of opposing surrogacy under all circumstances.
Personally I find it very depressing that more enlightened countries around the world and across Europe have banned it but the UK is looking to update our "not fit for purpose" laws and a Law Commission Review has begun, funded in part by the Department of Health.

www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/commission-begins-work-on-not-fit-for-purpose-surrogacy-laws/5065988.article

Given that an outright ban is not on the table I have been thinking about what "improvements" to the law we can expect. I am very concerned about quite a few issues.

Discussion upthread has raised financial issues I had not previously thought about.

If you consider the Californian model, that Dustin Lance Black extols, all the costs fall to the commissioning parents which is why it is so expensive over there.

ALL medical costs, IVF, payment for donor eggs, antenatal care, delivery and I would hope post natal care.
Legal expenses, for both parties.
Agency fees.
Counselling and screening of the surrogate.
The surrogate herself is paid. Whether her general living expenses etc are expected to be met from the fee or they are charged on top I do not know. However USA alone in the western world gives practically no maternity leave. About two weeks at the most I believe.
So if the surrogate takes a break from work I would imagine the cost falls to the commissioning parents, either on top of the fee as expenses or the fee is sufficient to allow for these costs.
I think we can be sure that the state in the USA will not contribute one single dollar to any of the costs associated with surrogacy.

In the UK at present commercial surrogacy is not allowed so I believe agencies are voluntary and do not charge fees, contracts are not enforceable and probably not drawn up most of the time.
IVF would have to be done via a private clinic as the NHS does not offer this to surrogates yet.

But once the surrogate is pregnant she can rock up to her nearest maternity unit and have all the rest of her care on the state. OK, you could say if the commissioning parents were able to get pregnant the NHS would fund their pregnancies so fair enough, so long as both parties are British.

Then you have other benefits such as maternity leave. Adoptive parents are entitled (rightly) to parental leave. Adding in the surrogate means it is paid out three times potentially.

Paid surrogacy is not allowed but they can claim expenses. These are suggested to range from £10k to £15k. Isn't it fair that leave from work should come under expenses?

Legal costs such as court costs and any social work input for the parental order - I assume they fall to the state too.

With "improved, up to date" laws and an increasing demand significant expense will fall to the state.

I fully expect that international customers will be attracted to the UK unless the new laws specifically outlaw it. An American could make a substantial saving with medical costs and leave from work falling to the state (and employers).

No way do I want maternity rights affected but I really don't think it is fair for employers or the state to take the hit for surrogate mothers.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 02/02/2019 20:44

Sorry VickyEadie I got the wrong end of the stick of your question. Yes I agree though that the impact of her decision on her family/employers/students doesn't sit well with me.

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 02/02/2019 21:23

I'm an adopter. Not due to any fertility problems but because an adult in the the family had their child removed by the Family Court and, had I not stepped forward, the child would've been adopted outside of the family. I still had to go through all the checks, balances and assessments of any person in this country wishing to adopt, quite rightly.

I have spent many hours of my life over the years holding my adoptive child whilst their heart has broken over and over due to them thinking they were ultimately rejected by their birth parents. This kind of pain, even when the child was not safe to be left in the care of birth parents, can take a lifetime to recover from. I cannot begin to imagine how my child would feel if they had been, in effect, sold by their birth parents. I can only think that it would create even greater trauma and feelings of insignificance in a child.

Surrogacy needs to be stopped, in all forms, to protect the children involved. End of.

OhHolyJesus · 07/02/2019 16:31

Saw this today

www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/surrogates