Mermaids 'power couple' Hannah & Jake Graf say surrogacy laws must be changed to force women to hand over babies

[QuietContraryMary]

Jake & Hannah have joined a surrogacy agency and want to rent a womb. Hannah says, however, the law should be changed to compel the rented woman to hand over the baby at birth.

www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/transgender-couple-ready-start-family-call-uk-surrogacy-law-141118630.html

We are nothing but brood mares now...

The other problem is that whatever laws are passed, it is very difficult to prevent people from going down the DIY route, at least where one of the commissioning parents has available sperm. That is, finding a surrogate on Facebook , small ads or wherever, and making use of a turkey baster.
In these cases there are NO checks or balances, legal or medical at all.
If surrogacy is more strictly regulated it will become more expensive due to the number of people involved wanting a slice of the £ cake. Lawyers drawing up contracts for both sides, agencies, counsellors etc. So people who can't afford it will go down the diy route.

I believe any new regulations/laws should make it absolutely clear that parental responsibility orders will NEVER be given to people who sidestep the law. Draconian measures are the only way to enforce this.

DH and I haven't been able to have children. Under no circumstances would I pay to have another woman go through it and buy the child: I often see people saying that until you've been through infertility you don't know you wouldn't. Well, I've been there and I wouldn't

I really appreciated reading this thread

I’ve got two biological children, and when younger and more naive might’ve considered being a surrogate of egg donor, albeit in an altruistic way for a loved one. As it happens, my first birth was so horrific that I had PTSD and it took 12 years before I had my second (and the day I wee’d on a stick, I had to have an emergency diazepam prescription because PTSD is really, really real!)
Since then, the universe gave me a step child, who age wise, slots in the middle, masking the big age gap. I love my DSD, but I am acutely aware that I am not her mother, another woman put her health, wealth and emotional well-being on the line for DSD to exist.

When I was a kid, my mum supplemented our family income with some cleaning. In school holidays, I sometimes had to go along and hang out with the kids of the families she cleaned for.
Neither my sister or I have ever had a cleaner, despite it being a good practical solution at points in our lives. Our childhood experiences have left us with the impression that it’s just not OK to pay other women to do stuff that you aren’t willing to do yourself.

Is it a class/wealth thing that means some people think it’s ok to buy in gestational services? Because that would include Male/Male couples, as they belong to a different sex class?

Will paid wet nurses be making a comeback next? Or will surrogates be expected to pump and courier to the babies they didn’t get to nurse?

Also, if the commissioned kid gets a childhood cancer diagnosis a few years later, will The Commisioners be able to return it for a refund? Or a partial refund, if The Gestator supplied the egg herself?

Neither my sister or I have ever had a cleaner, despite it being a good practical solution at points in our lives. Our childhood experiences have left us with the impression that it’s just not OK to pay other women to do stuff that you aren’t willing to do yourself.

Betty - I am interested to read this, because it reflects an event when I was very wee, just Primary 1 (so age 5 or 6) and my mum said she was going to get a cleaner. And she knew that Robert ( in my class) mum did some cleaning for people...and said she would ask her. And I was absolutely horrified at the idea. I said 'You cant do that , that's Robert's mum!!' - and she didn't

And I've felt that way ever since, but was never sure why.

No one is going to want to be a surrogate if they are forced to hand over their babies.

It’s very well saying yes no problem, I am happy to help, but when you feel that life inside you, emotions can become muddled and you can start to love it. You then have to suffer severe mental health problems if you are forced to hand over the infant.

It’s weird isn’t it? As an adult I don’t judge women who do employ people to help domestically - but then, the landscape has changed and people I know are likely to employ through companies, where the workers get holiday and maternity pay etc, rather than cash in hand.

There is still a preference for female domestic cleaners, perhaps because women are statistically more trustworthy, or perhaps because men are expecting to being paid at higher rates for similar work (janitorial, caretaking etc)? I think there is a lot here to properly unpick before it makes logical sense, but I certainly get a similar squicky feeling about both scenarios.

Our childhood experiences have left us with the impression that it’s just not OK to pay other women to do stuff that you aren’t willing to do yourself.

Not sure I agree with you. Sometimes it's the only work that women can do, if they can't afford childcare. It's also - fairly exclusively - work that women do. If nobody had cleaners, what would those women do? I've known several women, including my sister, who took cleaning jobs when they were on their own with children.

I get your point about cleaners but I don’t agree with you.
I have both been a cleaner and hired cleaners. I hired a cleaner not because it’s degrading work that I don’t want to do but because it’s the thing that can be outsourced easiest. The other things in my life I prefer to do myself because they need my individual input but I can leave someone to clean my house without any managing.

Cleaning is flexible work that can be arranged around childcare and can top up low incomes.

Paying someone for their labour is not the same as paying someone for their body.

It’s not in the same league as being a surrogate or prostitute.

My friend had a cleaner ex army, he was awesome she said.

There is such a cavalier attitude towards emotions.
The surrogate WILL NOT feel a bond of love with th ed baby.
The baby will not feel a bond with the mother.
The prospective parents will love t yhe baby.
But failed adoptions are a thing
You cannot command emotions like that.
More controlling behaviour.

It’s not in the same league as being a surrogate or prostitute

Of course not.

Nonetheless, they are connected in that some people normalise women doing things that most men simply wouldn’t consider, in part because it fits in with childcare (prostitution and paid surrogacy can both be arranged around family commitments).

I could possibly tempted by an ex military male cleaner, Justasking imagine how neatly the beds would be made! 😂

Whilst on holiday, I once met a surrogate. She had just birthed a baby for a couple. She told me she was on maternity leave from work as a Teacher.

Now, I'm aware I might get shot down in flames for saying this. But 'on maternity leave from school' for having a baby for someone else? Isn't that somewhat taking the piss out of your employer and the kids you're employed to teach?

Honestly - if I'm wrong, tell me so but tell me why.

VickyEadie - did you miss the bit where she said she'd just gave birth? You think she should skip into school the next day after giving birth?!

By law you have to take a couple of weeks maternity after birth, I forget how many. We can’t allow that protection to be lost due to small numbers of surrogacies as it was hard won and vital in regards to new born mortality rates.

Better to outlaw surrogacy (in a Nordic model type way? Criminalise the buyers, rather than the sellers?) than have maternity rights chipped at?

Our childhood experiences have left us with the impression that it’s just not OK to pay other women to do stuff that you aren’t willing to do yourself

Oh stuff and nonsense. I've paid for gardeners, window cleaners, plumbers, electricians, decorators and cleaners. I've had male cleaners. Paying a cleaner because I don't have the time or inclination to do it myself is no different.

She had a C-section. I don't remember how long it was post birth. I felt so sorry for the family. She said the holiday was her way of thanking the children and husband for their support. I didn't ask her what she had told her children, they were junior school age.

Isn't that somewhat taking the piss out of your employer and the kids you're employed to teach?

I agree. Time needed for physical recovery should be taken as sick leave, since there is no baby to care for.
Even that though means the employer is picking up the tab. I'd be furious if I was having to fund it.
The commissioning parents are probably also entitled to leave, I know adopters (rightly) get maternity/paternity leave, a colleague is taking a year off to adopt.
So that means employers/the state funding three lots of leave.

I actually think the surrogate should not be entitled to any leave at all - let them take what they need as unpaid leave and the commissioning parents pay for that leave.

VickyEadie - did you miss the bit where she said she'd just gave birth? You think she should skip into school the next day after giving birth?!

Not at all - it's the taking of mat leave when it's not your own baby that bothers me (and I defend 100% the principle that a woman is entitled to proper mat benefits - for her own children). Mat leave comes at a cost to any employer. Taking such benefits when it's not to have your own children is what I object to.

But as I said - if I'm wrong, tell me so. I'm being genuine about that.

And I'm not saying she shouldn't have had the couple of weeks off work post-birth per se - she'll have had some time pre-birth also. It's all a cost to the school that is not (in my view) what mat leave is meant to be for.

I actually think the surrogate should not be entitled to any leave at all - let them take what they need as unpaid leave and the commissioning parents pay for that leave.

I agree.

The employer and indeed the state. Presumably IP get leave when they take the baby home, like adoption leave?

It's a big ask of someone else to carry your child.

I was more focused on the impact it had on four people I was watching all week on holiday.

So this couple are asking the tax payer to fund NHS treatment for themselves, a surrogate and maternity leave for several people along with several employers and for the surrogates family who are impacted. They don't present it that way.

There are only a limited number of surrogate women anyway and they can only carry a limited number of babies. As I said the woman I spoke to had standards to be met regarding who she would carry and birth a child for - even a wealthy, talented famous man couldn't obtain a UK surrogate.

"Neither my sister or I have ever had a cleaner, despite it being a good practical solution at points in our lives. Our childhood experiences have left us with the impression that it’s just not OK to pay other women to do stuff that you aren’t willing to do yourself."
Totally missing the point, but you do know you get male cleaners? And you are willing to do it yourself, you're doing it, if it is practical and cost effective for you then go for it, best thing we ever did, no different to getting a babysitter for a few hours a week.

Iused2BanOptimist and Juells I've read and reread those links, and I just can't get out of my head such horrendous misogyny. I just can't understand how anyone could have the lack of feeling to comment like that when someone is giving birth, let alone DOING THEM THAT FAVOUR. I know that people are cruellest to those they've wronged, but this is just another level of selfish entitlement and cruelty. I just don't understand how there can be people who were so unashamed of what they were doing (FILMING, FFS!!) that they could admit to such things in public.