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Original poster

Transrational: Manifesto

68 replies

KlutzyDraconequus · 30/01/2019 22:18

transrational.co.uk/manifesto/

If anyone is interested.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 30/01/2019 22:26

Encouraging...though I fear many under the 'trans umbrella' will reject it.

One thing ... I can't for the life of me see what's complicated and nuanced about sports... maybe because it's harder in practice to implement a third option?

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 30/01/2019 22:31

I suppose they’re trying, but saying the physiological mutilation of children is a nuanced issue which needs further consideration and we’ll get back to you on sport is a bit of a give-away.

Is this the work of the Twitter user @Kinesis? I have a bit of time for Kinesis.

AnneHutchinson · 30/01/2019 22:32

What’s complicated and nuanced about sport is that no one seems to accept that choices have consequences. A female athlete that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term will likely lose out in competetition — she accepts that. A male who chooses transitions to female may lose out in competition against males —- they however don’t accept that. Instead, females must lose out. Otherwise it’s rank injustice, for some reason.

I know, I know, transitioning isn’t a choice. By which the word “choice” is also redefined.

Yambabe · 30/01/2019 22:50

Interesting reading.

Bit disappointed about the sport section though, I would have though that was one of the most obvious places where sex segregation is needed.

To me, it's not nuanced at all. Male bodies shouldn't compete in female competitive sports. By all means stay involved with sport - coach, or play (non-contact) at amateur/fun level but competition, nope sorry.

Yambabe · 30/01/2019 22:51

Haha xposted with pretty much everyone!

2rebecca · 30/01/2019 22:56

Agree Anne. I think if you are a male who wants to identify as a woman then you have to accept that most competitive sport is unavailable to you. You could compete against the men, but competing against women shouldn't be an option. There would still be non competitive stuff you can do in sport. For instance if a cyclist you can do Sportives or audaxes. Stuff like going to the gym, pilates and yoga are fine. This is only a problem for transwomen. Transmen with their higher testosterone could compete as men, although are in danger of harm in some sports with their female frames. They have the disadvantage of female VO2 max, peak flows and a female pelvis as well so probably won't win much.

Misteryise · 30/01/2019 23:16

I like it. It's not perfect, but it's a starting point at least. Agree that the content on sports and medical intervention for children is not in line with what I personally would like to see. However, with these sections that the effects of either medical treatment on children and the effects of transitioning on athletes are observable and measurable, which may help to clarify the best route forward, although further research is sorely needed.

OvulaRasa · 31/01/2019 00:00

I have a bit of time for kinesis too, but not for kids medicalisation.
Haven't read Manifesto yet, I think there are a few others involved.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 00:08

I hope that discussion will lead to change in what the group understand about the need for single sex prisons for vulnerable female prisoners.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 31/01/2019 07:05

What’s complicated and nuanced about sport is that no one seems to accept that choices have consequences. A female athlete that chooses to carry a pregnancy to term will likely lose out in competetition — she accepts that. A male who chooses transitions to female may lose out in competition against males —- they however don’t accept that. Instead, females must lose out. Otherwise it’s rank injustice, for some reason.

This!

Fantata · 31/01/2019 08:43

Pretty much agree with PP. Don't understand why sport is complex. However, as a starting point for a sensible discussion of practical issues, I think it is manna from heaven. I can get comfortable with most of it. I don't think the issues around transitioning of kids are that complex but then the whole point of a debate is to understand that other people have a POV as well and it's good to feel that we might be able to discuss that with all POVs represented and without all screaming at each other.

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 08:54

I'm struggling to get past the arrogance of the starting sentence. They are the most rational!

By implication all us women are less rational...

A look at Kinesis twitter timeline doesn't reassure me either,

  • wants to be a Shaman!
  • dismisses physical violence against women
  • thinks women cause more harm than men

This is another trans person manipulating us, they've seen the main activists are pushing women too hard so they are trying to get what they want by appearing more rational whereas it's really more of the same dressed up in fancy wrapping paper

ErrolTheDragon · 31/01/2019 09:07

If you look at the 'About' page, 2nd, apparently this group includes radical feminists and 'regular men and women' ... any implication rad fems aren't 'regular women' was probably accidental!

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 09:21

any implication rad fems aren't 'regular women' was probably accidental!

Thanks Errol ffs they are playing us by saying they are the rational position and on even a cursory read the mask slips in a few places. They aren't interested in what we want they're just trying to use us to get what they want

ErrolTheDragon · 31/01/2019 09:46

I did actually mean that possible implication was accidental - this looks to me to be a genuine initiative (though obviously currently flawed) by people who are not aligned with the TRA type positions.

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 09:52

Errol I think it was accidental as well but those sort of accidental implications are revealing in themselves

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 31/01/2019 09:57

I spent some time looking at this yesterday and really thought this is a discussion I can get to grips with. I'm pleased to see it.
There's points in there I have no real opinion on that I'm confident with just yet, others that I have very strong feelings about (sports!) but we never expect to, or even need to, agree on everything.
Just a discussion that is thought through and put out there in good faith. I also appreciate Kinesis insights on twitter into their 'lived experience' of gender dysphoria. This is to me a shift in the atmosphere and I'm pleased to see it.

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 10:16

I'm getting increasingly frustrated that we're in danger of giving too much weight to the opinions of "rational" transsexuals because they seem to be on our side.

They are still male, they are still acting in their own interests, and their families still appear to experience the same issues that other Trans Widows have been through.

It's feeling increasingly like gaslighting to me.

ErrolTheDragon · 31/01/2019 10:23

I don't think we need to do that. I think it's net good for these trans people to engage with women and - if nothing else - refutes TWAW:

  • Transmen are transmen. They’re not men. Transwomen are transwomen. They’re not women.*
R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 10:27

I'm getting increasingly frustrated that we're in danger of giving too much weight to the opinions of "rational" transsexuals because they seem to be on our side.

They are still male, they are still acting in their own interests, and their families still appear to experience the same issues that other Trans Widows have been through.

Tinsel I can only begin to imagine the additional levels of deep frustration that you and other women so directly affected must rightly feel.

Time and again males perceived as being 'moderate' trans women are applauded without the actual details and the specific implications for women and children of their statements and actions being considered.

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 10:29

Yes R0, and their female partners can't even find refuge in gender critical feminism because that too has been appropriated by their husbands.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 10:36

Yes R0, and their female partners can't even find refuge in gender critical feminism because that too has been appropriated by their husbands.

Tinsel I remember the thread following Stello O'Malley's Channel 4 documentary when even discussing this was made impossible by male transpeople who were posting.

The Transwidows threads are so incredibly important, and many here want to protect them from 'TRAs' but the perspectives and knowledge of the women who find refuge there seems annexed on this board rather than centred.

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 10:43

It's worthy of its own thread but I've not found the energy to start it.

It's like they've found a way to be the most popular girl, that they always wanted to be.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 31/01/2019 10:49

The Manifesto seems to be allowing women and girls sex segregation in loos and changing rooms. But not in prisons and sport?

The cynic in me thinks this is because many of them know that they will go unchallenged in public toilets. So they are giving us these spaces knowing full well that they are going to use them anyway.

The push for puberty blockers needs to stop if they genuinely want to appear rational.

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 10:56

R0, you're right that the Stella O' Malley thread was the nearest we got to having a proper discussion on this, but there were transsexuals mansplaining over our experiences.