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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transrational: Manifesto

68 replies

KlutzyDraconequus · 30/01/2019 22:18

transrational.co.uk/manifesto/

If anyone is interested.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 10:58

It's worthy of its own thread but I've not found the energy to start it.

It's like they've found a way to be the most popular girl, that they always wanted to be.

I was watching a video of Sheila Jeffries speech earlier this week which seems relevent.

Sheila Jeffries describes being worried by the growing tendency amongst women/some feminists to split into the 'good, nice, trans, old fashioned, friend of feminist' male transpeople and 'the imposters, the ones who threaten women, bad ones':

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 11:12

R0, you're right that the Stella O' Malley thread was the nearest we got to having a proper discussion on this, but there were transsexuals mansplaining over our experiences

YY, Tinsel my memory was that some transwomen made it impossible to even allow space.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430608-Stella-OMalley-Trans-Kids-Its-Time-To-Talk

It was at a similar time as the letter in the Times published by a group of transsexuals protesting the overreach and violent tactics by some trans activists.

The thread revealed tensions within the group and the impossibilities of separating transsexuals from trans rights activists.
It also demonstrated a great deal about how what was being sought by many transwomen was affirmation and allies to the TS cause and viewpoint.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3445694-Letter-in-the-Times-Plea-To-The-Trans-Lobby-from-group-of-transsexuals

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 11:18

It's feeling increasingly like gaslighting to me.

TinselAngel I think anyone who has experienced gaslighting / coercive control etc, managed to identify it and exit are much more alert to other situations when this might be happening.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 31/01/2019 11:46

Thanks for posting that video R0, I'll watch it latter when I have more time.

Sheila Jeffries describes being worried by the growing tendency amongst women/some feminists to split into the 'good, nice, trans, old fashioned, friend of feminist' male transpeople and 'the imposters, the ones who threaten women, bad ones'

Yes. I've heard lots of women who say that they have no problem with TS males, but don't want TG males in their spaces. Is there even a difference, and how is it possible to police that difference, if it exists? And we have to be honest that letting one group of trans males into our spaces has made those spaces available to all. The problem started before the current push for self id.

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 11:52

Thanks for posting the video R0, it's fascinating.

It's very puzzling for me. Every other Trans Widow I've spoken to has had a husband who was a fetisihistic AGP. It didn't appear to be sexual with my ex, but did he lie about that like he lied about everything else?

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 12:07

TinselAngels ROwantrees thank-you

I don't understand why any woman are considering this, this 'rational' Hmm manifesto is still someone born male trying to get us to agree to give up women's rights for a position that works for them.

The positions laid out in this manifesto are not for our benefit it's for their benefit

It's not giving us anything it's just saying they won't take as much away from us as the harder line activists

We should never forget the erosion of our rights started from a position of 'oh we just want to use your toilets, you won't know we're there'

From my original position of naivety where I believed the 'oh we only want to be like you and you won't know we're here' line I now only trust trans people who aren't trying to get something from us and Kinesis and whoever else is behind this wants a lot from us and I'm quite sure once they've got that they'll start demanding more because that's the only way this discussion has gone every other time.

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 12:09

And yes what they are doing is gaslighting

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 12:10

I asked a prominent transsexual on here if they had a female partner and if so how that partner has coped, and was ignored.

Ereshkigal · 31/01/2019 12:18

TinselAngel I think anyone who has experienced gaslighting / coercive control etc, managed to identify it and exit are much more alert to other situations when this might be happening.

This.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 12:27

I thought this article was quite a good comprehensive explanation of how gaslighting works:

'50 Shades Of Gaslighting: Disturbing Signs An Abuser Is Twisting Your Reality'
by Shahida Arabi
Updated September 29, 2018
Gaslighting, explained.
How do you convince someone that something they know to be true isn’t? In psychology, what is known as the “illusory truth effect” is a phenomenon in which a listener comes to believe something primarily because it has been repeated so often. When an abuser continually tells you that you are oversensitive or that what you are experiencing is in no way abuse, you begin believing it, even if you know deep down it isn’t true.

In other words, a lie that is repeated long enough eventually can be seen as the truth. Researchers Hasher, Goldstein and Toppino (1997) discovered that when a statement (even when it is false and readers know it to be false) is repeated multiple times, it was more likely to be rated as true simply due to the effects of repetition. This is because when we’re assessing a claim, we rely on either the credibility of the source from which the claim is derived or familiarity with that claim. Surprisingly, familiarity often trumps credibility or rationality when assessing the perceived validity of a statement (Begg, Anas, and Farinacci, 1992; Geraci, L., & Rajaram, 2016).

The illusory truth effect can cause us to become susceptible to the effects of another dangerous form of reality erosion known as gaslighting. Deliberate manipulators who gaslight with the intention of eroding your reality and rewriting history tend to use the “illusory truth effect” to their advantage. They will repeat falsehoods so often that they become ingrained in the victim’s mind as unshakeable truths.

When this is done repeatedly to override what was truly experienced, it can leave an immense dent in the fabric of someone’s perceptions and ability to trust themselves. When used chronically to control a victim, it becomes a damaging aspect of psychological abuse, placing the survivor at risk for depression, anxiety, PTSD, suicidal ideation and even what is called by some therapists as “Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome” (Van der Kolk, 2016; Walker, 2013; WolfFord-Clevinger, 2017; Staik, 2017).

Gaslighting allows perpetrators to evade accountability for their actions, to deflect responsibility and exercise their control over their partners with alarming ease. (continues)

Gaslighting in Conversations
What does gaslighting look like in day to day conversations? It usually involves some form of the following:

Malignant repetition of falsehoods. As noted previously, repeating a lie frequently enough can become a way to reinforce and cement it as truth. Whether these lies are seemingly innocuous or potentially damaging, they can overwrite existing perceptions.

Minimizing the impact or severity of the abuse. This is when the gaslighter has committed a serious offense against you and instead of acknowledging it, minimizes the impact the abuse had on you or the gravity of the abuse. Tell-tale signs someone is minimizing verbal, emotional or even physical abuse may sound something like:

“That wasn’t even abusive. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.”

"I didn’t raise my voice. You’re just misinterpreting things.”

Projection and generalization – The gaslighter diverts the claim back to the victim, claiming that he or she is the one who “always” creates trouble, when in fact, it is the gaslighter who is perpetually creating chaos and refusing to validate the victim’s claims. The gaslighter then generalizes all of the victim’s claims and assertions as ridiculous or characterizes them as attempts to create conflict, as if conflict did not already exist in the first place. Common examples include:

“You’re just so sensitive.”

Withholding information and stonewalling – The abuser is unwilling to engage in the conversation at all and often shuts down the conversation any time a claim is made against him or her about their behavior. This might look like:

“I am done discussing this.”

“That doesn’t even warrant a response.”

Questioning their memory, emotional stability and/or competence – The abuser avoids accusations and conversations by questioning the victim’s memory or ability to comprehend the situation in an unbiased way.

They may say things like, “I don’t remember that. Are you sure you’re remembering that correctly?” even if the event just happened a few moments ago. They may call into question a victim’s awareness, or, if they’ve engaged in substance abuse coercion with the victim, may use that against them to ensure that no one would believe them by asking things like, “Have you been drinking again?” or “Are you off your meds?”

“You need to calm down and think about this.”

Bringing in a third party/the triangulation maneuver. Triangulation is the act of bringing in another person into the dynamic of a toxic interaction. While we usually talk about triangulation in the context of manufacturing love triangles, when it is used in gaslighting, it can manifest quite differently.

Triangulation (in the context of gaslighting) can be used to confirm the abuser’s version of reality and shame you into believing that you truly are alone in your beliefs and perceptions. It fuels a victim’s sense of alienation when another person (or a group of people – such as the narcissist’s harem) agrees with his or her distortions.

Malignant narcissists are prone to recruiting what the survivor community refers to as “flying monkeys” to agree with their perspective. They may bring these people in physically to confirm their point of view (“Hey Sandra, what do you think? Isn’t Laura being paranoid?”) continues

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

BettyDuMonde · 31/01/2019 12:41

Working with transsexual males is a bit like, to use the Term of the Week ‘collaborating with the right’. There are overlaps in the Venn diagrams (transsexuals with gender dysphoria, of the kind who engage with the current GRC process ARE at risk from Self ID) but the biggest parts of the circles don’t overlap at all.

When we are in the overlaps, it does kinda-sorta make sense to pool resources (the US have the immediate pressing concern of the Equality Act, so are where we were at the beginning of the year - all hands on deck).

But the minute the overlap is dealt with, or the time frame for dealing with it has passed, we are back in our seperate circles, working towards completely different long term aims. It’s important that we all remain aware of that.

An ally in one battle can be (and often is) the enemy in the next.

Tinsel what can we do for transwidows? I’d personally like to see a nationwide support service, one that is completely independent of any trans organisations - I’m sure lots of women would happily raise funds? Wonder if the Freedom programme would be interested in preparing some trans-survivor specific materials as a start point?

And I noticed you commented about how you’d like one of the transwidow cohort to write a book? How about we try and organise a collection of shorter stories, rather than one full length-er? Contributing women could use pseudonyms. If a publisher couldn’t be found, we could self publish (it’s not expensive these days, because you don’t have to commit to a sizeable first printing, now that bookbinding technology has modernised)?

(I’ve been ruminating on how to help but try and respect that the thread is not for me to post on - I read it all the time and think the contributors are the definition of stunning and brave!)

Ereshkigal · 31/01/2019 12:45

Working with transsexual males is a bit like, to use the Term of the Week ‘collaborating with the right’. There are overlaps in the Venn diagrams (transsexuals with gender dysphoria, of the kind who engage with the current GRC process ARE at risk from Self ID) but the biggest parts of the circles don’t overlap at all.

When we are in the overlaps, it does kinda-sorta make sense to pool resources (the US have the immediate pressing concern of the Equality Act, so are where we were at the beginning of the year - all hands on deck).

Yes, and a friend has just made this very same point.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 13:16

Tinsel what can we do for transwidows? I’d personally like to see a nationwide support service, one that is completely independent of any trans organisations - I’m sure lots of women would happily raise funds? Wonder if the Freedom programme would be interested in preparing some trans-survivor specific materials as a start point?

BettyDuMonde The point that was being made on the Stella O'Mally thread was that the perspective of transwidows is confined to two threads on FWR whilst there are countless threads about male transpeople/transsexuals celebrating their words.That these people have wives and children. The question was raised whether their wives might feel able to post on FWR beyonf the transwidow support thread.

Even within this thread when the position of wives was started to be discussed, the conversation was disrupted.

(It was much more nuanced and I;m summarising from memory)

I don't want to speak for Tinsel or any other woman similarly affected by her husband/ male partner but think it important to to amplify their voices and kniowledge as well as resisting either implicit or explicit attempts to silence these women.

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 13:18

KlutzyDraconequus thanks for drawing our attention to the manifesto, I wondered what your thoughts are? And where you'd seen this (trying to get a feel for where else this is being discussed)

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 13:20

I'd like to see the perspective of Transwidows on all the threads, they have seen the impact and thinking closer than any of us

Weezol · 31/01/2019 13:28

'It's not giving us anything it's just saying they won't take as much away from us as the harder line activists'

That sums it up as far as I can see.

Mumfun · 31/01/2019 13:29

Tinsel what can we do for transwidows? I’d personally like to see a nationwide support service, one that is completely independent of any trans organisations - I’m sure lots of women would happily raise funds? Wonder if the Freedom programme would be interested in preparing some trans-survivor specific materials as a start point?

Really good idea. I think a sort of divorce care group for Transwidows would be a good idea too. Have been involved in one in the past and seen the benefits they can bring.

KlutzyDraconequus · 31/01/2019 13:46

KlutzyDraconequus thanks for drawing our attention to the manifesto, I wondered what your thoughts are? And where you'd seen this (trying to get a feel for where else this is being discussed)

It was on the Twitter.

Not sure anyone wants to hear my thoughts, I'm neither qualified nor intelligent enough to share them effectively.

But I dislike rights of women being eroded, I don't like the thought of non dysphoric people forcing their way into other sex segregated are places.
I disagree entirely with medical procedures or drugs for anyone under 18.
I think sport should be segregated by birth sex for now, likely needs far more study by the scientific community.
But I also think that people refusing to treat people as their preferred gender, labelling all transwomen as pervy men etc, I don't think that helps either side.
I don't think inner biology can change, but as gender is pretty much based on other peoples perception, I think perception can change. A transwoman suffering dysphoria presents as female because she wants peoples perception and treatment of her to match her own idea of self. So when she's not treated as she feels she should be it causes mental strain where her subconscious can't balance her treatment Vs her sense of self. To me, telling a dysphoric person that they're the gender they're born as and they can't change that, it's similar to telling a depression sufferer to just cheer up or an anorexic to eat more.
If everyone accepted everyone's preferred gender and treated them accordingly it'd probably help the trans people's feelings of being 'other', no one wants to be considered as other.
But that's all well and good if every trans person is truly suffering from dysphoria. I don't think it's the case at the moment. I think there's a certain amount of bandwagon jumping, a certain amount of people calling themselves trans when they don't have dysphoria at all. They're the ones that trans people and non trans people should be working together to call out and remove from safe spaces etc. But none trans and trans can't work together right now as there's bad blood on either side caused, in part, by people who aren't trans that are speaking for trans.

But like I say, I have neither the experience nor the intelligence or the need to share my thoughts.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 13:54

But I also think that people refusing to treat people as their preferred gender, labelling all transwomen as pervy men etc, I don't think that helps either side.
I don't think inner biology can change, but as gender is pretty much based on other peoples perception, I think perception can change.

This seems to demonstrate how important it is to modify other people's perceptions, how and why.

As well as attempting to influence perception of those who question transgenderism , identify male pattern behaviours and refuse to comply with demands etc.

It's worth looking at quite closely.

TinselAngel · 31/01/2019 14:05

I've thought for some time that a support group is needed, but I don't know how to go about organising it. Particularly given the concerns about privacy that any members of such a group would have.

The @transwidows twitter account regularly gets reported, what would the TRA's do to an actual formal support group?

I'm conscious that the trans widows threads only exist as long as Mumsnet allow them to, so something is needed independent of Mumsnet, and also completely independent of any trans organisations.

While the transsexuals are busy being stunning and brave all over gender critical feminism- those spaces are not available to their children and partners, and I find that thought horrifying. It makes me glad that my ex is a rabid TRA. Imagine how much worse for me it would be if he purported to be gender critical and was feted by the very women who should be my allies? There would be no space for me to talk about my experiences.

I was truly shocked seeing Debbie Hayton's wife on the Stella O Malley documentary.

A collection of stories and approaching The Freedom Programme are both great ideas @BettyDuMonde

My only red line would be that I couldn't be involved in a group which helped women to stay in these relationships. I am absolutely not interested in facilitating these men. I've had half a lifetime of it. That's why the Trans Widows threads are called "Escape Committee"

ErrolTheDragon · 31/01/2019 14:05

what does 'treating someone as their preferred gender' mean in practice, other than pronouns and not batting an eyelid at 'presentation'? The important issue for women is sex, not 'gender'.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 14:17

While the transsexuals are busy being stunning and brave all over gender critical feminism- those spaces are not available to their children and partners, and I find that thought horrifying. It makes me glad that my ex is a rabid TRA. Imagine how much worse for me it would be if he purported to be gender critical and was feted by the very women who should be my allies? There would be no space for me to talk about my experiences.

I was truly shocked seeing Debbie Hayton's wife on the Stella O Malley documentary.

This is so important ^^

LangCleg · 31/01/2019 14:25

They are still male, they are still acting in their own interests

This. And a look at a certain Twitter timeline in the last couple of days indicates to me that the same old emotional threats are deployed when there is any pushback or lack of success.

My sympathising with someone's distress does not indicate that I am obliged to be responsible for it or manage it in any way.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 31/01/2019 14:42

I was truly shocked seeing Debbie Hayton's wife on the Stella O Malley documentary.

I wouldn't be surprised if seeing how Debbie's wife is 'coping', made people reassess how they feel about a lot of trans issues.

2ndWaveFeminist · 31/01/2019 15:16

LangCleg which twitter timeline is that, there's so many it's hard to keep up

@Kinesis timeline bothers me (I've not gone that far back maybe it's better maybe its worse I don't know), but they have their flying monkey handmaidens masquerading as radical feminists plus some trans flying monkeys. And seem to complain about being ganged up on and treated badly whenever anyone is less than fawning.

They also clearly have a need to be 'special', the Shaman thread is a real wtf moment.

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