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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Attitudes towards women and sex

70 replies

NoExcuse · 21/01/2019 10:27

Hi

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine at the weekend. He is, unfortunately, one of those "men and women are equal - women can be just as bad as men"; feminisim isn't necessary; both women and men like extreme sex types. He isn't actually a complete dick and is very supportive encouraging of women in general but has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to sex.

This weekend, our conversation was centred around sex.

Things he stated were: "some women like jackhammer sex; some women like several fingers, even a whole hand up there; some women like choking..." etc etc. He is basing this largely on 1) porn and 2) sexual experiences he had when younger with women who the older him now recognises were probably quite vulnerable.

I explained, as gently as I could that maybe not as many women enjoy these things as claim to. He had no idea why women would participate/accept/engage in/claim to enjoy these things if they didn't.

I explained about male expectations; coercion; normalisation of acts through porn; women having been abused previously having less strong boundaries...

He listened and responded 'appropriately' but then indicated that I'd hurt his feelings by saying these things.

Sorry if FWR isn't the place for this request but I wondered if there were any articles, research conclusions etc I could forward to him to support the idea that women generally don't enjoy abusive, dehumanising sex. And that sometimes women will claim that they do, when actually they don't.

It would need to be pretty robust. If he can pick holes in it, he will. Largely because he thinks women should be/feel empowered and not see themselves as victims. He thinks I'm doing women a disservice by stating that some/many are 'consenting' to sexual acts that they/we don't actually want to do.

Thanks.

OP posts:
Racecardriver · 21/01/2019 10:35

Not sure you could ever get a reliable study on this but surely it’s fommon sense. All people do things they don’t like to please others. Women, generally, are more prone to personality types that place people pkeasing as a high priority. Surely it’s obvious that most women don’t r joy things like waxing/spending ages blow drying hair etc to look ‘presebtsble’. Why would sex be any different. He’s look at this from his own perspective most likely. Tell him to imagine what it must be like if pleading his sexual partner is extremely important to him.

Original poster
NoExcuse · 21/01/2019 10:47

Not sure you could ever get a reliable study on this but surely it’s fommon sense

Yeah, you'd think wouldn't you?

But he holds onto that "I'm not a feminist, I'm an equalist" stance and thinks that just because I might not want that sort of sex, I can't assume no woman does.

He doesn't accept that women might do things they don't want to do to 'please' and if they do, then it's their own fault and they shouldn't. In his opinion, women are more than forthright about not wanting sex.

He also considers himself to be a good lover who focuses on the needs of his partner. But one who also understands that women enjoy sex. Of course we do, but most of us don't want sex with a 'jackhammer' or a man who thinks foreplay is sticking several fingers inside you! I wonder if that does anything for any woman tbh! But an awful lot of men try it.

OP posts:
Original poster
NoExcuse · 21/01/2019 10:49

'Evidence' to support his position is videos that women have uploaded to various select websites showing sex with a partner or solo and they sometimes engage is 'extreme' acts.

I have explained why this might not be an accurate representation but he's not having it.

OP posts:
nettie434 · 21/01/2019 11:05

No research to offer except my own experience - you are right. Have not always said ‘no’ if think it will be over quickly

Slothslothsloth · 21/01/2019 11:09

I think you are making a grave error in believing this man is arguing in good faith. Men like this have a vested interest in believing women enjoy their own degradation. You will never convince him otherwise because he simply does not want to be convinced otherwise. Do yourself a favour and spare yourself the energy you will spend going round in circles with a man like this.

MagicMix · 21/01/2019 11:16

If you are not planning on having sex with him I wouldn't bother wasting your time with this.

MagicMix · 21/01/2019 11:17

And if you were planning on having sex with him, I'd advise against it.

Original poster
NoExcuse · 21/01/2019 11:18

Interesting, Sloth. Sadly, I think you're probably right. It just irritates me how cock sure and confident he is in his assertions. The conversation was about sex in general and not either one of us specifically. He clearly does have a vested interested in believing it. I suppose that's why I wondered if there was anything I could send him to read!

nettie same here. More than that, I grew up with my mum telling me that's just what sex was like.

OP posts:
Original poster
NoExcuse · 21/01/2019 11:22

No, Magic, no intention of having sex with him!

OP posts:
QuentinWinters · 21/01/2019 11:23

Jessica Eaton
victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/05/18/beat-the-pussy-up-the-way-we-talk-about-sex-with-women/

Cindy Gallop
www.google.com/amp/s/blog.ted.com/cindy_gallop_ma/amp/

He probably won't care though. Men are very heavily invested in thinking porn is just dandy

userschmoozer · 21/01/2019 11:30

Talking to him face to face hasn't changed his way of thinking so why would you send him anything to read? If he cared what you think he'd listen to your actual words.
Stop investing in him. Start being more suspicious of why he is starting these types of conversation because it just sounds like he's honing his arguments.
If its you starting the conversations just quit. Back off, talk about the other things, stop feeding him.

Wordthe · 21/01/2019 11:33

Why are you wrestling with this pig?

DadJoke · 21/01/2019 11:37

The fact he personally is personally "hurt" by the issue suggests a certain degree of defensiveness and an agenda.

The issue isn't whether women do or don't like rough sex or ravishment fantasies - clearly many of them do. There is some research on that.

digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc9118/m2/1/high_res_d/dissertation.pdf

But porn is clearly having an effect, with a disproptionate number of women being the subject of pain and degredation:
www.socialcostsofpornography.com/Bridges_Pornographys_Effect_on_Interpersonal_Relationships.pdf

But this issue conflates women's desires with the violence and degredation inflicted on them by men, disproportionately. The issue is women engaging in reluctant sex, or sex without their consent (rape). If he doubts the statistics on that (and there are plenty showing that it is primarily men who are the perpetrators and women the victims) then he is not talking in good faith. There is also the issue that male perpetrators are using rough sex as an excuse for rape. It's an abhorrent defense.

If he acknowledges that it's primarily men who are the perpetrators, and women the victims, ask him how that squares with his "equalist" views. If he doesn't, then he is a bad faith MRA.

GroggyLegs · 21/01/2019 11:39

There's nothing quite like a man telling a woman that she's wrong about women.

What a prince.

GCSocScientist · 21/01/2019 11:39

I'm with you userschmoozer

OP. It sounds to me like your conversations with your 'friend' are being used to validate/legitimate his abusive behaviour towards women.

I bet he is getting a kick out of describing violent sexual acts to you and having you politely suggest, and task yourself with resolving, the problematic nature of those actions.

There are some lovely guys out there who dont get a kick out of sexual assault.

Spend time with them instead, 'cause they are probably feeling alienated by all the guys, like your friend, who insist rough sex is awesome.

WrathofRancidKlopp · 21/01/2019 12:21

men and women are equal - women can be just as bad as men"; feminisim isn't necessary
He is blind to the effects of his privilege.

As he gets older, he will get to realise he can manipulate women even more. If he chooses to.
Especially true if he has a bit of money to flaunt.

Try quoting the prison stats for men, then move on the numbers of male sex offenders.
You will get Myra Hindley and Rosemary West thrown back at you, but challenge him further than these two.

Original poster
NoExcuse · 21/01/2019 12:30

Thanks everyone. Thanks for the links and the reactions.

FWIW, I agree with all of you.

Groggy your post reminded me of something - he and I were previously discussing the issue of body image.

I said that sometimes women rejected sex due to poor body image and that you have to find yourself sexually attractive/feel sexually attractive in order to have sex confidently. He said that if a man desires a woman that should be enough.

When I pointed out that it didn't work quite like that and that women have their own thoughts independently of what men think, he told me that, in that case, women were just self absorbed and that if someone else (specifically partners) find a woman sexually desireable that should be enough.

Yeah, I'm getting out of the mud with this man.

If it gets brought up again, I'll just tell him I'm not prepared to discuss.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 21/01/2019 12:39

Not sure if this helps but this brought to my mind that story of the comedian whose sexual encounter with a woman known as Grace and how she wrote about it afterwards. She wrote about it being coercive and how she didn't enjoy it and how it wasn't rape but sort of felt like it? Sorry - I'm not being clear, I'll let this link speak for itself (again not a scientific study).

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2018/1/17/16897440/aziz-ansari-allegations-babe-me-too

Wordthe · 21/01/2019 12:49

He is not worth your time, just laugh at him and walk away

Slothslothsloth · 21/01/2019 12:54

Why are you friends with this imbecile? Why do you consider him “not a complete dick” and “generally supportive of women”? He’s glaringly misogynistic. Raise your standards.

Wordthe · 21/01/2019 12:57

Do not engage with his nonsense he is a bullshiter
therefore everything that comes out of his mouth is bulshit
he isn't interested in rational debate he just wants to dominate and control, make you feel uncomfortable by being sexually explicit and misogynistic

Timmytoo · 21/01/2019 13:17

I don't think he is meaning to be sexist in his comments, I just think he's extremely ignorant.

One of my exes who was a really nice guy overall and not at all sexist generally was very surprised when I told him only a small amount of women were able to orgasm from penetration alone. He thought all women could, he was just ignorant.

My current DP thought that his 62 year old mother who had a full hysterectomy could lend me one of her tampons!! Hmm

To be fair, some women do like rough sex and fisting (whole hands up there). Same as some men like their anus to be penetrated by women either by fingers or a dildo. Some men like to dress as a baby, that doesn't make the paedophiles, strange but not sinister. Everyone likes and fantasizes about different things, it doesn't always mean women are being abused.

MagicMix · 21/01/2019 13:23

Some men like to dress as a baby, that doesn't make the paedophiles, strange but not sinister.

I find the involvement of babies in sex extremely sinister, even if it is not a real baby.

GCSocScientist · 21/01/2019 13:25

Yes, great point OP.
Let's be fair to the guy with a history of abusive sex with vulnerable women.
Also, I dont think you are going to get many of us to agree that an adult man dressing as a baby whilst engaging in sex play isn't sinister.. Confused

GCSocScientist · 21/01/2019 13:26

Ha! cross post MagicMix

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