Attitudes towards women and sex

[NoExcuse]

Hi

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine at the weekend. He is, unfortunately, one of those "men and women are equal - women can be just as bad as men"; feminisim isn't necessary; both women and men like extreme sex types. He isn't actually a complete dick and is very supportive encouraging of women in general but has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to sex.

This weekend, our conversation was centred around sex.

Things he stated were: "some women like jackhammer sex; some women like several fingers, even a whole hand up there; some women like choking..." etc etc. He is basing this largely on 1) porn and 2) sexual experiences he had when younger with women who the older him now recognises were probably quite vulnerable.

I explained, as gently as I could that maybe not as many women enjoy these things as claim to. He had no idea why women would participate/accept/engage in/claim to enjoy these things if they didn't.

I explained about male expectations; coercion; normalisation of acts through porn; women having been abused previously having less strong boundaries...

He listened and responded 'appropriately' but then indicated that I'd hurt his feelings by saying these things.

Sorry if FWR isn't the place for this request but I wondered if there were any articles, research conclusions etc I could forward to him to support the idea that women generally don't enjoy abusive, dehumanising sex. And that sometimes women will claim that they do, when actually they don't.

It would need to be pretty robust. If he can pick holes in it, he will. Largely because he thinks women should be/feel empowered and not see themselves as victims. He thinks I'm doing women a disservice by stating that some/many are 'consenting' to sexual acts that they/we don't actually want to do.

Thanks.

To be fair OP you have both came up with views based on personal opinion and experience. His statement that some women like those things is probably true, your statement that most don't is probably true too, but neither of you can prove it. Don't think there is a study of this nature that could exist that couldn't be pulled apart.

Is he still in touch with any of his ex partners. They are the only ones that can comment on their likes and if they truly enjoyed it. You can't assume they didn't just because you don't.

In a way he is right there are plenty of articles on how feminism has made things worse for women and has actually benefited men. I do not under any circumstances tolerate sexism from males at all, maybe I'm even fanatical but I'm trying to understand his thinking as it would also be ignorant of me not to.

A while ago about 10 years, I adopted what I call "A Male Thought Process", I've experienced and read mostly from MN posts, that women always seem to get the raw end of the deal. So what I implemented into my own personality and it works very well, is what he's basically saying. Think like a man! Men are generally very simple beings, they are happy with a bit of food, a bit of sex, a wife, tv and a couple of friends, they don't really require much more in my experience.

Women make things very difficult for themselves, we are perfectionists, trying to do everything perfectly, run the home, controlling the cleaning ie: criticism of men for not cleaning properly, worrying endlessly about what people think, how we look, what we wear, our weight, what men think etc etc.

Adapting a "male" persona is so liberating. I train in the gym so I have excellent muscle strength, giving me confidence.

I don't pander to my DP. I expect him to do a lot of the housework and don't praise him for helping me. I don't care what people think anymore, I do what I like when I like and I don't people please at all anymore. I do things for me now.

If someone sexually assaults me I do it right back to them ie: pinching my bum, iI immediately turn around and pinch his, If men start talking about females and sex, I join in talking about men and sex. I have stopped resenting them and their thoughts and selfishness, instead I've joined them. Since I did, I received two pay rises as I believe I deserved them with arrogance like a man, before I was too shy, but I thought most men wouldn't be so why must I. It worked, I received two on both occasions.

I've had non stop compliments from people saying how confident I am (I'm not really) I've just began to think like a man. My DP Hoover's and mops everyday, makes dinner some days, washes up and makes me coffee in bed. My ex DP did all this too, why? Because I expected it and didn't take on a "women's role" of always being the caring person and martyr.

A good example was yesterday infact. I went the shop but I wasn't wearing a bra, immediately I felt self conscious until I saw overweight men walking around barefoot, they didn't give a damn about what others thought. So I said to myself Fuck this, I don't care that I'm not wearing a bra, they don't care why should i?

A great meme came up on FB saying - Bring girls up to be Warriors, Not Ballerinas!

Sorry @MagicMix My wording was awful. I meant men sucking dummies and having their wives feed them bottles, not actual babies themselves. I understand your point though upon thinking about it. It does kind of use babies as a fantasy in a way which is despicable. I just hadn't related the two as I saw men dressed up only, I didn't think of actual babies.

NoExcuse, in both your examples, this man is telling you that your experience is wrong and that his opinion is correct. He isn't interested in listening or thinking about your point of view, even if he pretends otherwise. I think it's sensible to stop engaging with him, especially when he chooses to talk about these kinds of topics.

Timmytoo there is a definite women bring it on themselves feel about your post, and sexually assaulting a man back???

OP your friend sounds like a dick, and you could confront him with incontrovertible proof and he still wouldn’t have it. He knows women don’t like being strangled, but he likes strangling women and he doesn’t want to be bothered by his pesky conscience when he’s got his hands around a woman’s neck.I’d stop out of his road if I was you. He’s a bloke who gets off on hurting and scaring women, and personally, if it were me, I wouldn’t want a friend like that.

That’s for Timmytoo and her wall of text

Whatever. People will always twist things around to make things read differently

I most definitely didn't imply anything like that at all, I've been a victim many times in my life by men which has encouraged me to stand up for myself and give men a taste of their own medicine.

Regarding pinching a guy's bum - only if he did it to me first, it always shocks them when they get back what they give out, they expect to be shouted at or slapped, they never expect to be given what they gave. Their faces are priceless!

Thanks @Slothslothsloth Love biscuits 😋

Worth looking at this list of women and pondering why heterosexual men aren't dying due to this widely desired rough sex:
www.wecantconsenttothis.uk

I agree there are better people to use your arguments on than this one.

Considers himself a good lover, easily hurt feelings.....
...ask him if he thinks any of his previous sexual partners has ever faked an orgasm. Faking orgasms obviously not a good long term strategy, but if you're staring at the cracks in wall getting jackhammered by someone who prides himself on being the Duracell bunny of sex, were already bored ten minutes ago, the lube has worn off and the friction burn is starting to hurt, faking it brings the boredom and pain to an end pretty quickly and Mr Lover Lover gets to feel like a hero.

Yeah yeah we should always be empowered to call a halt to proceedings and point out that it's shit, boring and he's not as good at doing sex as his cherished self image....but you know....we humans like the path of least resistance. He might claim that he wouldn't be offended or sulk if his fab techniques were criticised. Hmmm.

Surely it's understandable that both sexes will sometimes 'go along' with something to please the other, but that women face additional fears and pressures that are likely to cause them to go along with a lot more. In some cases 'go along' is an understatement, and 'endure' is more accurate. And that's before even more extreme things.

In the vast majority of cases, the more extreme acts are what men do to women... not the other way around. Given that, it's fairly easy for a man to live up to any expectation that he should commit those acts, but a hell of a lot more costly for a woman to live up to the expectations of her. That could happen even between two perfectly well intentioned people who only want to 'impress' each other and misguidedly assume they need to mimic something hardcore.

He mentioned a couple of physical things involving hands. Well, there's a prime example. The most he has to sacrifice is using more fingers, or worse, but the woman has to sacrifice pleasure for likely pain (in all likelihood).

For the overwhelming part - the woman pays the price of extreme acts.

He's cocksure and confident because he knows what he's saying isn't true and he's enjoying the process of (attempting to) browbeating you into pretending to agree.

I'd express disgust with his attitude and tell him never to say shit like that to me again if he values our friendship.

To be fair, some women do like rough sex and fisting (whole hands up there). Same as some men like their anus to be penetrated by women either by fingers or a dildo. Some men like to dress as a baby, that doesn't make the paedophiles, strange but not sinister. Everyone likes and fantasizes about different things, it doesn't always mean women are being abused.

This whole paragraph makes me want to start planning my escape to Radfem Island.

That paragraph is just making me think out loud...

Why does an act have to be an extreme one for it to be abuse? (he is arguing it doesn't have to be abuse, but he uses extreme acts to argue the case).

Ask him how many women have ever requested the extreme things vs what he may have requested. I would imagine it's close to zero.

He's also assuming that 'empowerment' equates to women choosing to enjoy extreme acts.
But how about empowerment in the form of 'fuck off, I don't like it and I won't do it'?

'some do' is not a justification to do it.
Far better to say 'most don't' as a justification for not doing it.

Men are generally very simple beings, they are happy with a bit of food, a bit of sex, a wife, tv and a couple of friends, they don't really require much more in my experience

That's sexist claptrap every bit as much as anything the OP's friend said.

A great meme came up on FB saying - Bring girls up to be Warriors, Not Ballerinas!
No it isn't

So many men searching for the mythical woman who just loves (insert painful, degrading act that couldn't possibly result in an orgasm for her here). As long as they believe that said mythical woman exists (or pretend to) then they feel justified in asking every single bloody woman they meet to engage in (insert painful, degrading act that couldn't possibly result in an orgasm for her here). After all, she might be into it, right? Some women are.

This has been today's moment of insight into the mind of a self-serving arsehole.

He doesn't sound worth the bother

He's taking the piss out of you. Wrangling his pseudo intellectual bullshit is a waste of your time

Drop him

Another man who finds it hurtful to his feelings to hear that women have preferences and opinions about what happens to our own bodies.

torn your post reminded me of this
www.google.com/amp/s/theweek.com/articles-amp/749978/female-price-male-pleasure

That article's far better considered and articulate than anything I could post, but yes, the core conclusion is the same. Nice find!

'some do' is not a justification to do it.
Far better to say 'most don't' as a justification for not doing it.

I completely agree.

I've read the article Quentin posted and, whilst reading it, I could 'hear' his responses.

Unfortunately, I can imagine that they'd be along the lines of, "it does women a huge disservice when things like this are written about them. It makes them feel like they can't say no or stand up for themselves when they are told that they can't. I'd be quite happy for a woman to say no".

I think part of the problem is that he sees men and women as truly equal. He sees women as equally capable of men. He would never overlook a woman in favour of a man at work; he challenges instances of men talking over/dismissing women in meetings and he never makes casually sexist comments. He won't assume a woman needs his help because she is the fairer/weaker sex - he will offer assistance to men and women equally. I've seen him do it. In his head, we are entirely equal and he doesn't see sex as an area where this would be any different.

So his expectations of women in a sexual context would be exactly the same as those of himself/men. That is that if something hurt; was unwelcome; was unsatisfying, then the woman would just say so.

He knows that he wouldn't continue with an act he felt was degrading/painful/humiliating and he has no concept that a woman might do either. In fact, it possibly hasn't occured to him that a woman might find something degrading/painful/humiliating if they had 'consented' to it.

But it's true that some women do like that kind of sex.
You as one individual woman cannot speak for all women.

He listened and responded 'appropriately' but then indicated that I'd hurt his feelings by saying these things.

“IN ONE IMPORTANT WAY, an abusive man works like a magician: His tricks largely rely on getting you to look off in the wrong direction, distracting your attention so that you won’t notice where the real action is. He draws you into focusing on the turbulent world of his feelings to keep your eyes turned away from the true cause of his abusiveness, which lies in how he thinks. He leads you into a convoluted maze, making your relationship with him a labyrinth of twists and turns. He wants you to puzzle over him, to try to figure him out, as though he were a wonderful but broken machine for which you need only to find and fix the malfunctioning parts to bring it roaring to its full potential. His desire, though he may not admit it even to himself, is that you wrack your brain in this way so that you won’t notice the patterns and logic of his behavior, the consciousness behind the craziness.”
― Lundy Bancroft, Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men

This guy is no friend - he's profoundly disrespecting you and women, belittling you and getting off at describing "rough sex". He hasn't a blind spot but is using you to wank off and in the process learn more about how to disguise his abuse. Walk away as fast and you can and have no contact. And read Lundy Bancroft.

But it's true that some women do like that kind of sex.
You as one individual woman cannot speak for all women.

That is true. They might and I can't. But his position is that it's a common preference and that it is always a free choice/informed consent when sometimes it isn't.

Hm interesting appraisal, woman. Thanks.

For clarification - this man is only a friend - I don't have any romantic or sexual interest in him whatsoever.