Attitudes towards women and sex

[NoExcuse]

Hi

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine at the weekend. He is, unfortunately, one of those "men and women are equal - women can be just as bad as men"; feminisim isn't necessary; both women and men like extreme sex types. He isn't actually a complete dick and is very supportive encouraging of women in general but has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to sex.

This weekend, our conversation was centred around sex.

Things he stated were: "some women like jackhammer sex; some women like several fingers, even a whole hand up there; some women like choking..." etc etc. He is basing this largely on 1) porn and 2) sexual experiences he had when younger with women who the older him now recognises were probably quite vulnerable.

I explained, as gently as I could that maybe not as many women enjoy these things as claim to. He had no idea why women would participate/accept/engage in/claim to enjoy these things if they didn't.

I explained about male expectations; coercion; normalisation of acts through porn; women having been abused previously having less strong boundaries...

He listened and responded 'appropriately' but then indicated that I'd hurt his feelings by saying these things.

Sorry if FWR isn't the place for this request but I wondered if there were any articles, research conclusions etc I could forward to him to support the idea that women generally don't enjoy abusive, dehumanising sex. And that sometimes women will claim that they do, when actually they don't.

It would need to be pretty robust. If he can pick holes in it, he will. Largely because he thinks women should be/feel empowered and not see themselves as victims. He thinks I'm doing women a disservice by stating that some/many are 'consenting' to sexual acts that they/we don't actually want to do.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, I can imagine that they'd be along the lines of, "it does women a huge disservice when things like this are written about them. It makes them feel like they can't say no or stand up for themselves when they are told that they can't. I'd be quite happy for a woman to say no".

It's doing you a disservice to not listen to what you're telling him. He is already overruling you.

People commit murder, it's not doing everybody else a disservice to suggest it's not a good thing.
He can find someone with a fetish for almost anything, they are atypical, or even exceptional.

Try this one on him...

If extreme sex was so commonplace, or even just mildly popular, then why is there such demand for it on the internet? The demand's because it's not so commonplace and the internet's the only realistic prospect most will have of experiencing it without having to force or coerce a woman into it.

It's patronising to think you don't realise some folks like different forms of sex with varying degrees of physicality. But if a woman wanted to be particularly heated, and her partner didn't - I'm damn sure she'd be ok with that, and wouldn't say 'you're doing your sex a disservice'.

Have I mentioned that he's a cockwomble?

You're welcome. It may come across as "hard" - I've seen too many of them - like a machine learning bot they spend time with friendly women to refine their disguise.

I find friendship with abusive guys is a one-way street. Anyway, as soon as I assert boundaries they tend to disappear as they can't use me for their own ends anymore. Everything they do is about them .....

There are better friends out there. Take care.

If he stated, as described, some women .... I can quite believe it to be true. If he thinks most/all women then that is obviously incorrect. It's quite possible that he has been attracted to/developed relationships with women who like the same kind of sex that he does - makes sense - so that gives a skewed view of 'most women'

It's a really common request by women on affair websites for example - the whole sub-dom thing. The men sometimes complain about it.

(Fingering is the best ever type of sex for me, not sure what's so extreme about that? Fisting ...a bit more specialist)

Yes, quite, woman.

It's a bit of a shock though to realise this. I've known him for years and we've been close friends for a long time.

But I can't deny that i'm reading these replies and also remembering other examples of things that he's said.

And Torn is right. Actually, I don't need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that some women might be 'consenting' to sex they don't wish to have.

ISdads

I think it's more the fact that he outright rejects the notion that some women might be 'consenting' to painful/uncomfortable/unsatisfactory sex because they are intimidated/socialised that way/have previously been abused etc rather than because it's the best sex for them that bothers me. Rather than that we just disagree on the numbers of women who might orgasm through 'fisting', say...

Fair enough.

He doesn't need a study, he needs empathy, which he doesn't have.

Lost cause.

I don't think anybody denies that a percentage of men and women get pleasure from some seemingly strange fetishes, or just some more extreme physical acts. That cannot be news to anybody.

However, he's trying to use that to justify his lack of comprehension for how or why any woman might go along with something against her will, or better judgment. To put it bluntly, he's arguing 'well some women like it... ergo, why would a woman feign liking it?'. It's a completely illogical conclusion.

Men don't have to go along with sexual things, or fake sexual pleasure, because there are no repercussions if they don't. There are plenty of repercussions for many women if they don't.

As soon as a man accepts that women can feel pressured into doing things, he ought to forever be wary of putting one in such a position, or of her assuming it's expected of her.
If he doesn't accept they can be pressured, then he will never stop to check, and if he does accept it but then doesn't become wary, then he has no regard for women.

Of course women are equal. So are black people, but it didn't stop either group being oppressed (and it continues still), and when a group is oppressed, you have to question why they go along with things... because they have no desire to suffer yet more oppression.

Equality and identicalness are not synonyms.

OP the thing that came to my mind was the medical journal thing a couple of years back about how

Girls were being coerced into anal
Neither the girls nor the boys espected the girls to enjoy it
Both expected that the girl would just do it anyway
Increasing numbers of injuries

However, agree that arguing with this man is fairly pointless and it's very possible he is enjoying having these very descriptive conversations with you.

Can find a link if you want it though.

I mean all blokes and all women know that lots of young men push and push don't they? And that they always have done? As in fact HE DID with women he now realises were vulnerable..

He's playing with you, really.

bmj report
bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/8/e004996

news article
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/women-being-coerced-into-having-sex-researchers-say-with-persuasion-normalised-9671395.html

i think it's pointless though and he will likely just be keen to talk to you about anal and girls and so on

Of course women are equal. So are black people, but it didn't stop either group being oppressed (and it continues still), and when a group is oppressed, you have to question why they go along with things... because they have no desire to suffer yet more oppression.

Equality and identicalness are not synonyms.

I like that take on conducive context

I watched a program on the TV some time ago about women who went to a mans house and paid him to abuse them, I think it was mostly bondage.
He wasn't young or attractive but had a few women a day booked in to go and see him.
Every body has their own secret fantasy that they sometimes act out with anonymous strangers, and would never share with a partners or friend.

He doesn't need a study, he needs empathy, which he doesn't have.

Lost cause.

This!
He probably has cognitive empathy which is a learnt behaviour and hence why he looks like he's supportive of women - after all, he will keep asserting that

But doesn't have affective or felt empathy ie the real deal

Let’s put it this way - porn aside, these encounters (extreme sex, humiliation or degradation of the woman) may well take place in the context of controlling behaviour where the woman had been coerced, manipulated and no longer knows which way is up generally; and the extreme sex acts may have started with pushing one little boundary at a time. Not because she enjoys it, but the creep has been imperceptible. You know, it’s only one little thing, everything else is fine, until it is the whole damn thing.

And then when she does say no, the man may well find a way of turning regular sex into something painful for her, ignoring that she is in pain, ignoring obvious signs and non-verbal cues and even the woman saying ‘this hurts’.

And eventually she might stop going to bed with him no matter how much he tries to coerce her, and eventually she might leave the relationship, no matter how much he harasses her to stay.

And he would be the very, very last person she would ever tell this to. Because she has to heal and he is not a person in whose presence she can heal.

But that apart, everyone else has said quite eloquently, do not even waste your breath with this man.

Unfortunately, I can imagine that they'd be along the lines of, "it does women a huge disservice when things like this are written about them. It makes them feel like they can't say no or stand up for themselves when they are told that they can't. I'd be quite happy for a woman to say no".

And it would be manipulative bollocks, and he would know that as he said it and be delighted that you were taking it seriously and engaging with it, because as long as you're doing that he can continue saying creepy, upsetting things to you.

And womanformerly is right - he's using these conversations with you to refine his argument, so that he can use it on other women who he wants sex from in the future, or for when he's done something that he will need an excuse for.

You are being used, op

How does him being a "friend" sit with that fact ?

How does it sit with me?

Honestly? It doesn't make for comfortable reading but, at the same time, I can't really argue with any of you!

We've been friends for close to 10 years. This isn't something that's come up in conversation until very recently. There have only been a couple of conversations on this matter so it's not something that gets brought up often but I'll certainly view it differently in future.

And whilst reading this thread and all the responses, I'm finding other comments that seemed pretty innocuous at the time popping into my head.

I can't avoid him for a number of reasons but I certainly won't engage any further.

He could be a perfectly amenable guy in other contexts, and maybe he is fairly typical in his views.. e.g. if there is no visible force being used, it must be consenting and ok with it.
It makes me think of the countless instances of women suffering from abuse who smile and hide any sign of it. You would never know they are suffering. Some don't even recognise they are being abused until much later. There must be plenty of women who engage sexually this way too believing some things are the norm, when they aren't. It's only later when they are exposed to non oppressive relationships that they can recognise the previous abusive ones.

Evidence' to support his position is videos that women have uploaded to various select websites showing sex with a partner or solo and they sometimes engage is 'extreme' acts.

Does it ever occur to him that people who upload vids of themselves are perhaps not representative of the vast majority of the population?