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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Karen White wants to force a return back to women's prison

101 replies

QuietContraryMary · 05/01/2019 23:00

www.mirror.co.uk/news/transgender-rapist-begs-25000-surgery-13818119

Now the 52-year-old is pleading with pals to fund her reassignment surgery, saying: “I’m longing for the day the system sends me – more like forced to send me – to a female prison again.

“But the only way I will achieve this is if I become a woman. Then the system will have no option but to send me to a female estate.”

White wrote in her letters: “Being in this place doesn’t promote positivity.

“The only way I’m going to get out here is if I was to have the operation soon (private) then the system would have to move me to a female prison.”

OP posts:
fem2019 · 06/01/2019 12:31

Aspie yes,exactly. Angry

ProfessoressWoland · 06/01/2019 12:31

White's ex-girlfriend states that his transgender claim is a sham. White lived as a man the majority of the time and only dressed up for nights out or when he met with council officials for disability benefits and housing.

Maybe he was initially 'gender-fluid' like the celebrated businesswoman Philip Bunce?

And isn't that how most AGP types start their 'journey' - by occasionally dressing up as women in public?
I think it's pointless to speculate whether or not White is a real transgender. Men with transgender feelings can be rapists. The "no true transwoman" rhetoric is dangerous.
I don't think taxpayers should fund fake breasts for men, but if his mates want to pay, let them, as long as they cover all costs.

Datun · 06/01/2019 12:33

The Ministry of Justice doesn't have a sterling record of managing risk, though, does it?

Well exactly. And that's the disconnect, isn't it? Thinking White is a goady fool for claiming they can 'force' the authorities to send them back to a female prison. And, simultaneously, realising that the authorities are equally stupid and misogynistic for allowing a rapist to assault incarcerated women in the first place. And therefore anything could happen.

It's difficult to decide who is more idiotic. It genuinely feels like children are running the place. In the most fundamental way possible.

This is basic stuff. You don't let men, but especially sex offenders, to access incarcerated women.

Just say no.

No. It's that simple.

Trinity1976 · 06/01/2019 12:38

If this person really did want to be accepted legally as a woman, presumably he could have started the process of gaining a GRC back in 2011 which is when he claims he came out as transgender, or at any time in between 2011 and now - he's had more than 7 years.

The fact that it is suddenly very important for him seems to be motivated entirely by a desire to be moved to a female prison.

The fact that he is implying that surgery is necessary to be moved to the female estate when it isn't is interesting. Could it be he is genuinely ignorant of the law? Or does he perhaps believe that any application by him for a GRC would be refused, but he thinks that by getting surgery it would persuade the prison service that he is serious and they would be compelled to move him in the absence of a GRC?

waterlego6064 · 06/01/2019 12:38

Karen White, the violent male rapist, needs to shut up and fuck off, and ideally cease to exist.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/01/2019 12:40

As happy as I'd be never to hear from White again, what actually needs to happen is for the Ministry of Justice, the media, and other decision makers to stop being so bloody easy to manipulate.

Jaxhog · 06/01/2019 12:45

No inmate with a dick should be resident in a women's prison. Period.

Nor anyone who has committed a rape/serious sexual assualt of a woman either, dick or no dick.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 12:50

Richard Garside addressed this in October on a Twitter thread. He is a director for Centre for Crime and Justice Studies, an independent charity.
Richard Garside provided nuanced comment in MSM at the time that White's sexual assault of women in female prison estate and history of serial violent & predatory offences came to light.

RG's Twitter comment:
"Could Karen White be transferred back to a women's prison? The short answer is yes. Here's how

Karen White is currently being held in a male prison and is likely to be so for the time being. Many assume that White will be held in a male prison for the entire prison sentence. This is not necessarily the case.‏

According to media reports, White continues to claim to be a woman and is in the process of transitioning. This could include applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate, which can be awarded to males who retain their male genitalia.

With a GRC, White would be considered to be a woman. What happens then?

The current Prison Service Instruction on transgender prisoners states: 'Unless there are exceptional circumstances... prisoners must be located according to their legal gender.'

What are the 'exceptional circumstances' that could stop White, with a GRC, being transferred to a women's prison? The risk posed to women is not 'exceptional' enough.

The Instruction states that 'Women offenders who present a high risk of harm to other women are managed safely in the female estate. Transgender women who pose similar risks should be managed in a similar way in the female estate.'

According to the Instruction, refusal to transfer is only possible 'if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate.'

On the face of it, this means that White could only be refused transfer if the Prison Service could demonstrate that a female prisoner with a similar risk profile to White would be transferred to a men's prison. In practice this could be very difficult to demonstrate.

Some will argue that White is atypical of the vast majority of transgender prisoners. This might be true, although we simply don't have enough information on transgender prisoners to know one way or the other.

In any case, the test of a good policy is whether it is robust enough to deal with the abusers, manipulators and chancers, not just those who are sincere in their beliefs. In my view, the Prison Service Instruction fails this test.

I'm trying not to be alarmist here. I do, though, want to point out that it is entirely possible, within the current policy, that White, or another male-bodied prisoner, will be able to manipulate the policy to gain access to females to abuse.

Transferring male-bodied prisoners who identity as women to the female estate is not, in my view, a satisfactory solution. It is, though, consistent with the general approach, by successive administrations, of treating women prisoners as an afterthought.

Leaving aside the specific threat White or similar prisoners might pose, most women in prison have experienced grotesque and traumatic male sexual and other violence. It is not fair on women in prison to expect them to share their spaces with male-bodied prisoners.

It is entirely possible for the Prison Service to revise its policy and create separate provision for transgender prisoners: one that respects their beliefs about their gender without expecting women prisoners to deal with the consequences.

If it does not do so, many will be justified in concluding that the Prison Service considers the needs and interests of a few male prisoners to be more important than the needs and interests of the around 4,000 women currently in prison. /END"

twitter.com/RichardJGarside/status/1050653429255659521

Popchyk · 06/01/2019 12:51

"The fact that he is implying that surgery is necessary to be moved to the female estate when it isn't is interesting".

I wonder if White, being the career criminal that he is, just wants to get his hands on some cash and will use the cash to buy cigarettes or something. And the easiest way to get someone to send him cash is to chant the "trapped in the wrong body" mantra.

Alternatively, White could genuinely intend to have surgery if someone else is paying for it. I'd imagine surgery already completed would be viewed as supporting his claim to be a woman in the future. Presumably he'll sue the MoJ if they won't transfer him after he gets his GRC and has had surgery.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 12:53

As others have said 'gender reassignment' surgery can mean facial plastic surgery eg ears, nose, chin and/or having breast implants.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 12:56

Also, stating a wish to have gender reasignment surgery which includes genital plastic surgery does not mean that this will always happen.
There may be medical reasons which mean someone is not approved for surgery (as with all operations).

Popchyk · 06/01/2019 13:00

Yes, you're right R0wan*.

Most people think that surgery refers to penis removal surgery when, as we know, most men who claim to identify as women choose not to have that particular surgery. However they may intend to have breast implants and facial surgery.

From now on, I'll refer to penis removal surgery specifically.

That Richard Garside thread was very well argued, by the way. His is an important voice in all of this.

Datun · 06/01/2019 13:11

The fact that it is suddenly very important for him seems to be motivated entirely by a desire to be moved to a female prison.

Yes. It's sooooo blatant. And suuuuch a predictable assertion.

Sorry for extended vowel usage, but my contempt for anyone who even fleetingly thinks there is a decent reason, knows no bounds.

In Ireland, who have self ID, you are not allowed to transition in prison. So that takes care of all the fakers in one fell swoop.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 13:14

From now on, I'll refer to penis removal surgery specifically.

Its isn't removed though is it? Wiki describes it as 'reshaping the male genitals'.
Wiki 'the testicles are removed, and the skin of foreskin and penis is usually inverted'. That the lining to the orifice may also be created from scrotal tissue, skin grafts from the thighs or hips, or a section of colon may be grafted in"

There are also discussions by some males who are seeking to retain their genitalia and have a surgically created orifice added.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/01/2019 13:16

There are also discussions by some males who are seeking to retain their genitalia and have a surgically created orifice added.

#notafetish!

nauticant · 06/01/2019 13:18

Well, that's the end of me thinking about having lunch.

Popchyk · 06/01/2019 13:24

Same, nauticant.

Don't think I'll bother now.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/01/2019 13:29

And that's exactly how most women will react, hence the "cotton ceiling" debate. Because God forbid any of these lovely individuals take "no thanks" for an answer.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 13:31

Apologies both.
I do think that there is a great deal of euphemism that risks causing confusion as well as obscuring truths.

I've had a total hysterectomy so am possibly a bit desensitised to surgical descriptions.

Popchyk · 06/01/2019 13:36

No, you are bang on about the euphemisms.

"Bottom surgery" used to describe what you've just posted about.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/01/2019 13:38

If the language was less ambiguous it would be a lot harder to con the public into going along with the plans to perform surgery on large numbers of young people.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 13:41

I think the responsibility starts with those who designed and offered 'sex change surgery' and those in the medical profession who continue to use this terminology.
Its not possible for people to change sex. Doctors know this as it is scientific fact.

#wordsmatter

NewYearsNiamh · 06/01/2019 13:59

Karen White, the violent male rapist, needs to shut up and fuck off, and ideally cease to exist.

I hate them too, but I think Karen White never being out of the tabloids/media is a good thing. More peaking, more WTF? etc etc.

More sunlight is always needed.

R0wantrees · 06/01/2019 14:01

Information about Fairplay for Women's petition:

"Fair Play For Women is calling on the government to urgently review prison rules following the sexual assault of two women while in prison by rapist Karen White.

More information on why this is important can be found in this article by James Kirkup in the Spectator.

Fair Play For Women has been pushing hard for more transparency around the risks of trans prison policy on women. We were the first to publish figures on the high number of sex offenders identifying as transgender. Our continued pressure has been instrumental in forcing greater transparency and the MOJ has now released official statistics:

60 out of the 125 transgender inmates in 2017 were convicted of sexual offences.
2018 stats show at least 22 male prisoners are living in women’s prisons (that’s 1 in 200 women prisoners in England and Wales are actually male)."
Prison experts have also spoken out condemning the policy:

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association said in June 2018: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence. Women prisoners are very vulnerable.”

Frances Crook of the Howard League, a prison reform campaign, has said that she is worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

The British Psychological Society has said this: “psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons”

Dr James Barrett of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists has said this: “It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this”

Richard Garside of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies has written this article saying “My concern about the current approach is that it is appears to privilege the subjective feelings of particular, largely male, prisoners, at the expense of the needs of those prisoners, largely women, who have to live with the decisions imposed upon them.”

The prison policy was created in 2016 following external consultation with transgender campaign group Gendered Intelligence. Advocates for female prisoners were not included. This policy is not fit for purpose and needs urgent and transparent review."
fairplayforwomen.com/petition/

petition has 8,462 signatures. At 10,000 signatures, government will respond to this petition

nauticant · 06/01/2019 14:02

Only joking R0wantrees. I had crisps and chocolate. Well, someone's got to work their way through the glut of Christmas chocolate.