Mothers are being abused during childbirth. We need our own #MeToo

[stumbledin]

I dont necessarily agree with the idea that this is the same as #MeToo but definitely at the extreme end of how the entrenched paternalism with health services too often leads to women being ignored and not listend to. And there examples of how many standard procedures are based on the needs of a male body not a female one. (another reason why pretending gender identity is the same as biological sex is not only nonsense but could lead to inappropriate treatment).

interesting that the author is part of Index on Censorship.

Caution: some women may find this difficulat reading www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/28/mothers-abused-childbirth-metoo-movement-women-give-birth

Posted too soon. DS was born in about 4 hours after massively strong contractions and no pain relief except the Tens. Apparently I didn't make enough fuss.

Next baby they still didn't listen to me. DD was born in a curtained cubicle on a wardful of people, only Tens for pain relief. Um I've done this before you know; the baby's coming, I'm not making it up.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils - I am really sorry if what I wrote upset you or made you feel I wasn’t taking experiences like yours seriously. Obviously you and your baby needed intervention much sooner, and I am sorry you had such an awful experience.

@SarahCarer - you are right about one small intervention leading to more - I believe it is called the cascade of intervention.

Yarnswift
I too had anaesthetic wear off during a c section.

I did as well :( I've always been surprised that I wasn't more traumatised - for some reason it never costs me a thought to go under a general anaesthetic despite waking as they swabbed down my stomach, cut me open, and dragged the baby out. I was awake until I heard the surgeon say "It's a little girl". In fairness, the anaesthetist came to see me the following day and apologised. He explained that they try to keep the anaesthetic as light as possible until the baby is out, in case its breathing is depressed, then up the dose when the baby is clear of your body.

@BHStowel I can't imagine how dreadful your experience was, and how much anger you must feel towards them. Even if all that was happening was the baby not latching, they were just mean to you.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius Oh no, you were talking about your experience which is just as valid as me talking about mine so not upsetting at all. I just used the similarities to highlight the differences. I think the problem is how do you balance a system around both of us. Not intervening was best for you and your dc, it wasn't the best for me and mine but they seem incapable of having a policy which takes into account both of those sets of circumstances.

It also had an impact on future deliveries, my 2nd was strongly advised to be repeat c-section because of the tear which they admitted probably only happened due to the length of my labour/how low ds was.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils.

On the other hand, I knew about the cascade of intervention, I'd done my hypno birthing, I was supposed to be a home water birth (as an older, obese, first time mother! Unheard of in the UK, my Canadian midwifes made sure I knew the risks and were fine with the idea) - but each time, my baby didn't descend, my cervix didn't dilate, and I went to EMCS.

The first time, after induction (gel then syntocin drip), the second just with contractions for a week. Each time I was fully mobile until I was too knackered to stay upright. The second time, had the people actually read my first labour notes, was identical. There was no point sweeping or trying to induce - it went just like the first, but slower because there was no syntocin. I presume I have a funny shaped pelvis or something (not that anyone would ever bother to check).

I think this is the thing - the UK definitely treated me as more of a production line item, rather than looking at what was going on, and helping me and the HCPs make individualised decisions, as we did in Canada

The doctors I saw were, I realise in retrospect, scared of childbirth.

They wanted to manage it to the nth degree. They told me they were "passionate" about women having epidurals and I couldn't be in labour as their monitors said no.

I knew I was in transition. I knew they would fuck things up if I let them near me. I lied, said I was going to the loo. Got into a wide squat and pushed. DS born easily. Carried him out of the loo in my arms to find the MW to take him whilst I birthed the other twin.

I was assaulted in a clinical setting when younger. This time, I did it myself and no one touched me. I delivered my own baby in spite of all their fucking wittering about giving birth on my back with "at least 8-10" people watching.

Fuck that noise.

Micke you have hit the nail on the head. I am a UK-trained midwife and work in Canada now. I prefer many things about the UK system, but Canada is SO much better at individualizing care. By comparison in the UK everyone is on a conveyor belt according to "risk" level. I have been particularly impressed by the OBs here; they actually listen, spend time with women and provide true informed choice, something I rarely saw from medical colleagues in the UK.

*PhoenixBuchanan" - do you think there's anything to be learned by requiring students to do a placement abroad for a year or at least 6 months in a country with a more enlightened system? Language students do this (even though the countries they study in are not considered "better" necessarily. But a lot of students from less well-off countries are sent to better-off countries to learn business and government etc. Wouldn't it work with us being the impoverished country in terms of attitudes and practices and having our students spend time in Canada or elsewhere where things are better?

That's certainly an interesting idea but wouldn't work practically- there aren't a lot of midwives in Canada and it's an issue finding placements for all the students here, let alone hundreds of students from abroad. Plus issues of cost, liability etc. However I came to Canada for a 2 week placement as part of my course and others went to New Zealand the the USA; this is definitely an option that should be explored more! We also had a Canadian student come to our Trust every year as part of an exchange, which I know they found valuable. As you say, it's about learning from new experiences, not necessarily about somewhere "better" to learn the "right way" of doing things. (Maternity care in the UK gets such a kicking on MN but there are some aspects that are better in the UK).

I do find myself wishing however that leaders and managers in the maternity services had more exposure to different systems and cultures of care, because a top down approach informs the whole system.

Just wanted to come back to this thread, as I dont see this as being a reason to dump the NHS. Medical trainingis the same whether for people going into private medicine or the NHS. Somewhere along the line, whether during training or how staff are managed an attitudes towards women in labour somehow leads (not every time) to women being dehumanised.

And yes I am sure with loads of resources and better staffing levels it can be better, but wont if the demeaning attitude towards women is inherent in the management style.

I am sure that somewhere in this thread someone mentioned a group that was actively campaigning to improve things, but cant find the reference!

Un the meantime here are three existing campaign groups:
www.aims.org.uk/
www.maternityaction.org.uk/
www.midwifery.org.uk/about-us/vision/

Well it’s obvious why private healthcare practitioners treat patients much better, the same as why in the school I work in (private) the teachers and the support staff were reminded on our inset day training that we must make every child feel valued, speak to them, reassure them, give them praise and an opportunity to discuss their personal learning journey. Why? Because without the patients or the pupils both the hospital and school will fold. And bad staff can be easily got rid of.

State hospitals and state education seem to forget patients and parents are paying for their healthcare and education through taxation.

If you had a bad experience with bupa and that made you switch to say aviva, it’s lost revenue for Bupa.

We are not customers and therefore there is no customer service in anything state provided.

I would like to know how healthcare provision works in Europe. Is it state funded or private? Are their the same issues? Are they following a US model or UK model or neither? What about Sweden or Finland they seem streets ahead in many ways what is their healthcare provision like?

The treatment I received during my first birth traumatised me so badly, it was 11 years until I even thought about having another child.

Well it’s obvious why private healthcare practitioners treat patients much better, the same as why in the school I work in (private) the teachers and the support staff were reminded on our inset day training that we must make every child feel valued, speak to them, reassure them, give them praise and an opportunity to discuss their personal learning journey. Why? Because without the patients or the pupils both the hospital and school will fold. What tosh. State schools up and down the country take a similar approach. They just have larger classes, less funding and a mix of challenges in the classroom. All schools and hospitals lose funding and therefore jobs if people opt to go elsewhere and believe it or not a lot of staff who choose to work in the public sector do so because of a sense of moral purpose. I know who I'd rather have caring for me. Of course what parents of independent schools don't realise is that the staff rooms are full of staff who couldn't cut it in mainstream schools.