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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender conversion therapy

53 replies

smegandhead · 17/12/2018 05:03

Am seeing a lot of posts surrounding Mermaids and the national lottery funding.

I cannot believe that mums would be so hostile to an organisation that helps children.

I wish in my day Mermaids existed as they could have helped me from the conversion therapy I endured

Message edited by MNHQ to remove link that broke our talk guidelines

OP posts:
irnbruforlife · 17/12/2018 05:33

I'm sorry for what you had to go through in 1977 but why are you suggesting that in 2018 the only alternative to affirmative gender treatment for children questioning their gender identity is electric shock therapy? Your speaking nonsense and scaremongering.

WereYouHareWhenIWasFox · 17/12/2018 05:38

Reported.
Are you trying to claim that an NHS hospital in Liverpool was essentially performing an exorcism? And using such language as a “demon had taken control of your body”. Is this what you are claiming? I just want to be clear.

Urbanbeetler · 17/12/2018 05:38

I promise you no one wants any child to go through what you went through. I have never heard anyone on my talk about demons needing to be exorcised or even conversion therapy. I think everyone would accept that as a child you felt like a girl and wanted to be a girl, and that feeling was real for you. I don’t think anyone here has ever sugggested or recommended electric shock treatment.

NotBadConsidering · 17/12/2018 05:39

What you went through is wrong.

What Mermaids propose is wrong.

It’s pretty simple. Alternatively it’s hard to understand how people can criticise people on MN for NOT wanting children to undertake irreversible hormonal and surgical treatment leading to infertility and sexual dysfunction, and NOT wanting organisations to promote this as the only option open to children. It’s baffling really.

NotANotMan · 17/12/2018 05:39

Are you suggesting that anything like that is happening in 2018?!

Raven88 · 17/12/2018 05:48

@WereYouHareWhenIWasFox

In the 1970s it would of been an asylum. Conversion therapy and electric shock therapy were used as treatment in the past and people believed it worked. Demonic possession was blamed for a lot of mental health conditions. I can see this happening in a hospital, all it would take would be one doctor who practiced it and a nurse to go along with it.

WereYouHareWhenIWasFox · 17/12/2018 05:54

Or maybe Raven the OP is trying to incite hatred for Twitter?

Urbanbeetler · 17/12/2018 05:58

I don’t think demonic possession was a thing in the 70s uk generally. I’m not disbelieving the op’s personal experience but it really wasn’t normal even then. However, I do agree that responses to this thread could be used against any degree of gender critical thinking. As can all the threads here.

Raven88 · 17/12/2018 06:06

@WereYouHareWhenIWasFox

I'm also critical of mermaids. If a child wants to be a different gender they should wait until they are 16 and they should see an unbiased psychologist who isn't affiliated with groups like mermaids.

I only disagree with what you said because ECT and conversion therapy happened in the U.K. and you can still find people who practice it around the world. Just look up NARTH.

Ifailed · 17/12/2018 06:06

several hundred years ago, a women who practised herbal medicine ran the risk of being murdered as a Witch.
If you question the veracity of someone who claims to cure cancer with herbal remedies now, we will immediately return to witch-burning.

bellinisurge · 17/12/2018 06:08

My mum was a nurse in the 70s in rural Lancashire and recalled a young patient who "wanted a sex change" 70s terminology. Demonic possession nonsense played no part of this child's treatment. Sympathy and help in a 70s kind of way. Not saying the child would perceive it like that but demonic possession? Nonsense.

WereYouHareWhenIWasFox · 17/12/2018 06:14

I did not make any claims at all Raven. You may want to reread my posts. I asked the OP to clarify. So what exactly are you disagreeing with?

Raven88 · 17/12/2018 07:06

@WereYouHareWhenIWasFox your post is questioning the OPs claims and you reported it. Sounds like you think they made it up.

Notevenmyrealname · 17/12/2018 07:16

I’m a mum teaching her children that people can like whatever they like regardless of whether they’re a boy or girl and gender stereotypes that they see every day in toys, clothes, books, films, etc are largely made up by the shops to sell more stuff. I try to challenge every tired sexist stereotype and encourage them to do the same. I talk to them honestly about their bodies and what they can do. I want them to be fit and strong and comfortable in their own skin. I encourage sport, healthy eating and watch what I say about my own body (I don’t want to pass on any body hang ups I have to them). Anyone with young children knows it’s virtually impossible to have privacy and when they’ve seen things such as blood in the toilet when I’ve been on a period or run into the bathroom when their dad or I are having a shower, we answer questions as best we can, in an age appropriate way, using facts.

The idea that an organisation can come into school and undermine our parenting by teaching our children not only that gender roles are somehow hard wired (which flies in the face of most modern neuroscience), but puts the idea in their heads that if they don’t fit these roles that somehow they were born in the wrong bodies and that a lifetime of medical intervention is something that they should consider, is terrifying. I want them to understand that they can love anyone they want without judgement. I want them to explore their identities and express themselves however they want but I don’t want them wearing items of clothing that restrict their ability to breath and exercise, or taking medication that could have unknown side effects, or treatment that leaves them sterile before they’ve reached an age where they can make a decision about whether they want children. I don’t want them contemplating the mutilation of their bodies that could potentially leave them unable to enjoy sex in their adult lives before they even understand what that means. And I don’t want ANY of this happening behind my back, in an air of secrecy.

I don’t feel I have a “gender identity”. I have an experience of living in my female body and everything that entails. I also experience the social expectations of being a woman. I am comfortable conforming to some of those expectations but not others. I don’t believe that my failure to live up to society’s ideals of what it is to be a woman is because there’s something fundamentally wrong with me, I believe it is because stereotypes are a load of rubbish. I want my children to grow up critical of restrictive ideas about sex and gender in the same way that we teach them to be about race or class or anything else.

I will never support an organisation run by people with NO background in either science or education, being let loose to teach my children pseudoscience and pop psychology, encouraging them to potentially harm their bodies while undermining my parenting choices and the bond that I have with them.

I’m genuinely sorry your experience growing up was so traumatic and I hope you have now found a way to live your life in a way that makes you happy. If any doctor suggested the ‘treatment’ you received, I’d be horrified but holding that up as the only alternative to puberty blockers, breast binding and removal of body parts is ridiculous. They are both wrong.

PyeWackets · 17/12/2018 07:18

Conversion therapy is a good choice of words, so many feminine gay boys converted to girls. So many young lesbians converted to trans.

What happened to you is wrong, what mermaids are doing is wrong. Stereotypes should not be used to measure who is male or female. No child is born in the wrong body, not one. Children desperately unhappy with their bodies should be able to explore a wide range of treatment, not just be pushed onto a medical path that ends in sterility.

smellslike · 17/12/2018 07:33

I've seen ECT being delivered and there are numerous technical aspects of this account that simply do not ring true to me (even given the changes in practice over the years).

The current NICE guidelines around ECT are extremely strict, and rightly so. To suggest that ECT might form part of some future 'conversion therapy' for 'gender-questioning' children is ludicrous and blatant scaremongering. This account also bears no resemblance whatsoever to the current practice of ECT - patients experience ECT under a short-acting general anaesthetic, with a muscle relaxant. I have spoken to patients who have found the treatment to be both very tolerable and beneficial - believe it or not, some patients are in a position to consent to ECT despite the severity of their illness.

I see this story is being circulated around Twitter, too - to date, with only one reply questioning its validity. Still - if this is true, then I am sure an investigative journalist would be more than happy to take on this story and expose the individuals/hospital concerned.

FWIW, I've felt it necessary to make a brand-new email and Mumsnet account for the purposes of commenting on this board, thanks to the actions and attitudes of the so-called 'trans rights' activists.

RiddleyW · 17/12/2018 07:34

The story sounds credible to me and I’m sorry for what you went through. I don’t believe mermaids is the answer though.

WereYouHareWhenIWasFox · 17/12/2018 07:41

Re read my posts Raven. I asked for clarification. But the OP has not been back. Does that tell you something?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/12/2018 07:42

Op is busy on another thread.

Squall · 17/12/2018 07:44

Isn’t transing children today’s conversion therapy? Just a thought

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/12/2018 07:44

And gender isn’t sex.

Wear what you like, call yourself by any name, play with dolls or trains (what the hell, play with both), wear pink or blue... gender is just fluff. The wrapper on the gift.
The envelope of the letter.

Pennydrew142 · 17/12/2018 08:13

Reported.

Mermaids is a danger to children.

deepwatersolo · 17/12/2018 08:18

So you oppose gender conversion therapy. Ok. And this is why you support the sterilizing and surgically assisted gay conversion therapy Mermaids stands for, OP? Ooooookaaaaay...

deepwatersolo · 17/12/2018 08:21

Yeah Fekko, as if anyone on here would object to boys wearing dresses and playing with Barbie, which is what ‚gender‘ amounts to. What an odd thing to accuse MN women of.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 17/12/2018 08:25

My sister had action man and all sorts of ‘boys toys’ and books. No hysteria or biology denial.

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