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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why does MN feminism focus on trans?

83 replies

Bestwestpest · 16/12/2018 00:49

Just that really. I'm admittedly not sold on the whole trans agenda. But aren't there bigger issues? I fear there are greater risks to women from men than from trans 'women'.

OP posts:
ChattyLion · 16/12/2018 05:22

This is a fundamental clash of rights. And only by the outraged efforts of women at the grassroots and a few brave journalists and basically one MP, has this been very slowly coming into the public consciousness. Still hardly anyone outside of MN has heard about this, yet it affects all women. And people want us to shut up about that?

Why would anyone of good intention want women to shut up about issues that affect women? I mean...throughout history, when has that never not taken a dark and nasty path against women...?

It’s authoritarian and disingenuous for trans activists (who do not represent all trans people) to try to (no debate allowed) force (by threat of police involvement, sanction by dissenting individuals’ employers or by social ostracism of dissenting individuals) a group (‘women’) to mean by their collective word, something new (ie to convey only a set of gendered stereotypes- particularly when many women suffer every day from the application of these very same stereotypes to their lives).

Women self-describing as women are using a time-honoured and commonly understood, biologically objective sex-based word for themselves.

Why should we accept a change to that against our will? There is nothing wrong or transphobic with describing transwomen as transwomen, a subcategory of men. Same as transmen are rightly described as transmen, a subcategory of women. Transmen remain welcome in women’s spaces.

Forced language should be a massive red flag. As PP say it has massive practical consequences which many women would not agree with and indeed as Stork shows, which have life-restricting consequences for women affected by them.

It’s obviously not OK for transactivists to be hounding people who peacefully have a difference of opinion, as Stork illustrates.

Yet this bullying behaviour goes on and eg the major charities who promote this political dogma do not call for a free exchange of peacefully-expressed views, which is the opportunity that women have been asking for.

Instead there are false claims that ‘the right for trans people to exist’ is somehow equivalent to ‘the need to be validated by being allowed into women’s spaces and subsumed into the category of women without question’. Which are not at all the same thing and which betrays a hyper-individualistic authoritarian agenda which pretends that a clash of rights is not happening.

This denies the obvious problems for women’s freedom of speech and association, privacy and dignity in single-sex spaces, services, education, sports, awards and opportunities and public services such as prisons and domestic violence support services.

Women just want to start with an open debate: eg for example via this petition to a major UK LBGT rights campaigning charity, Stonewall:
petition launched calling on Stonewall to:

  • Acknowledge that there are a range of valid viewpoints around sex, gender and transgender politics.
  • Acknowledge specifically the conflict that exists between transgenderism and sex-based women’s rights.
  • Commit to fostering an atmosphere of respectful debate, rather than demonising as transphobic those who wish to discuss or dissent from Stonewall’s current policies

^Link here: www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach^

Now look at a response from Stonewall: showing a complete brush-off of the problem and reiterating that calling for debate is in itself offensive:

www.stonewall.org.uk/stonewall-stories-category/come-out-lgbt/our-work-trans-equality-heart-our-mission-acceptance

The critique, (that this dogma is both sexist and homophobic)- is simply not responded to by those working to change public policy and the law to erase the category of biological sex, to retain the labels for biological sex with an altered meaning: in favour of categories of femininity and masculinity. Harmful concepts that get used against women (and men) all the time.

This avoidance of examination and debate is why women need to talk about this wherever they can- including on MN which lets us talk anonymously.

We’re not going to shut up when we can see sexism and homophobia being promoted in plain sight.

ChattyLion · 16/12/2018 06:03

I mucked up the link- this should work: www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

MsLToe · 16/12/2018 06:24

Brava, @ChattyLion

And this? Is in a nutshell what I think.

There is nothing wrong or transphobic with describing transwomen as transwomen, a subcategory of men.

But I’d be called a terf and have death threats if I dared say that anywhere outside of here.

Actually this might even get deleted because I says the ‘t’ word.

MsLToe · 16/12/2018 06:26

‘I said’ not ‘I says’

You know, sometimes I think iPads are set up to make people look illiterate.

Pennydrew142 · 16/12/2018 08:12

We get this question a lot. I suggest you look around a bit more because it will show that there are other important issues discussed, and why this one gets so much attention.

Invisible1234 · 16/12/2018 08:20

The removal of the female sex class would affect every issue that women face...it is fundamental and is therefore the most important feminist issue.

deepwatersolo · 16/12/2018 08:21

To answer whether women have bigger problems than the TRA agenda, we would need to know what a woman is, wouldn‘t we?

R0wantrees · 16/12/2018 08:27

Why does MN feminism focus on trans?

It doesn't, it focusses on women (adult human females) and children.
The mistake is to perceive that 'trans' is centred
Females are centred, unsurprisingly on 'Feminism & Women's Rights' board
The issue is that trans-ideology & trans-rights have been so widely prioritised to the significant detriment of women's rights, safeguarding, free speech & political process.

Why does MN feminism focus on trans?
Branleuse · 16/12/2018 08:28

*The trans issue intersects with another issue that is close to me: autism.

A hugely disproportionate number of those being put on puberty blockers are on the spectrum.

I don’t think there’s a bigger autism issue at the moment than the sterilisation of autistic children.*

Yes yes. Sterilisation and desexing of autistic young people, or the systematic removal of the language women use to define themselves and their lived experience and the completely definition change of what "woman" even means.

feministfairy · 16/12/2018 08:32

This thread is a great articulate start to a Sunday morning!

CosmicCanary · 16/12/2018 08:37

Apparently if you use the word female you are anti trans/transphobic.

Using the word male does not though. I wonder why?

Why does MN feminism focus on trans?
Horsewithnomane · 16/12/2018 08:43

"No one without an anti trans agenda says female anymore. People say woman"

It's early, I've just got up and I can't untangle all the double negs.

Can someone explain? It sounds interesting..

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 16/12/2018 08:45

I think that until this all kicked off, I hadn't really understood how marginalised women are. It's thrown into sharp relief just how much some men (and we're talking 'nice', 'smart' men here, doctors, MPs, people in the media), really dislike women.

the joyful jumping on a bandwagon that harms women and girls is very telling.

'i think that might be why this caught my attention so much

VickyEadie · 16/12/2018 08:45

The definition of the word "woman" is pretty central to feminism - how can you fight for women if you don't know who women are?

This. And all the other responses pointing out that if we don't fight for this issue, we will have lost the entire battle for women's rights.

Horsewithnomane · 16/12/2018 08:48

I also know several people who began transition in their teens and now in their early 20s are unhappy with the lack of support given to them beforehand...

Would it be possible for them to take legal action and maybe sue those that gave wrong advice, I wonder?

I'd bloody love to see mermaids in court...

sackrifice · 16/12/2018 08:53

I'd bloody love to see mermaids in court...

I'd donate to that legal fund.

R0wantrees · 16/12/2018 08:54

Can someone explain? It sounds interesting.

Using female= anti-trans

Good people (trans allies) use woman, which can include both sexes and those who don't recognise they are of a sex. (see also womxn)

Bad people (according to trans-ideology & activists)= those women who think sex matters = transphobic = should be shamed, smeared and/or silenced.

M0RVEN · 16/12/2018 08:54

I don’t think there’s a bigger autism issue at the moment than the sterilisation of autistic children

This. I’m the mother of two aspie kids and I don’t want them (and others like them ) sterilised and mutilated, with little or no capacity to enjoy a sexual relationship as an adult.

I don’t want them thinking that their bodies are faulty and that they need surgery and hormones to make them normal. They ARE normal, they are just not NT. They are perfect just the way they are.

What other issues should I be more concerned about OP?

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 16/12/2018 08:54

When there’s a need to write articles like this, something’s gone wrong somewhere

DO WOMEN EXIST? – THE SCIENCE OF SEX, THE POLITICS OF GENDER, AND THE MATERIALIST AND DIALECTICAL THINKING NEEDED TO DISTINGUISH THE TWO

convincingreasons.wordpress.com/2018/12/10/do-women-exist-the-science-of-sex-the-politics-of-gender-and-the-materialist-and-dialectical-thinking-needed-to-distinguish-the-two/

borntobequiet · 16/12/2018 08:59

For the same reasons that politics is focused on Brexit. It’s current, it affects us all and it’s potentially very very damaging.

ADastardlyThing · 16/12/2018 09:06

Us pesky women can think of more than one thing at once. Something to do with the brain..........

Bestwestpest · 16/12/2018 09:16

Some great responses here, thank you. The threat wasn't supposed to be contentious in any way, I genuinely wanted to gain some further understanding as a woman who the issues haven't had a direct effect upon. (Yet!!)

Definitely an issue I am going to further educate myself on!

OP posts:
Bestwestpest · 16/12/2018 09:17

*thread Blush

OP posts:
Horsewithnomane · 16/12/2018 09:21

Using female= anti-trans

Thank you ROwantrees.

The trouble is that I've also heard that using the word females instead of the word women is dehumanising as it could refer to cats and dogs!

Since then whenever I hear (usually men) use the word females instead of women it so often is one of the bad guys. It seems to be the word of choice used by woman-haters of one kind or another.

I have told my children it is bad form to refer to women as females.

I think words are very important - should I have a rethink?

ItsNotUnusualToBe · 16/12/2018 09:23

I’d speculate that for Feminists : how can you Centre women, when the very definition woman is being trashed
For women that don’t consider themselves feminists: were comfortable that enough progress regarding things like sport, STEM and safeguarding had been made and that self-Id will trash that.