Transpeople have higher rate of dv than women

[flyingdragonzog]

Posted on another thread www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

Obviously DV is wrong and terrible whoever the victim is

But do they really? Or is this just putting facts in a way that says what the world is meant to hear currently?

If we aren't recording it as rates of DV on transmen and rates of DV on transwomen... and simply recording rates of transgender people who experience DV

I'm inclined to think if we recorded the rates we would still find out that natal men are the perpetrators of the most DV? Or does becoming a transman mean you become more prone to being violent to a partner?

Hold on that doesn't work, scratch the wondering about transmen becoming more violent

It has to be natal partners doesn't it whether male or female... unless they include the couples where both are trans in this figure?

Transmen do seem to have more success at getting to the same violence levels as men than transwomen have vice versa, (I guess it is always easier to become a worse person than a better person ...) and I did witness extreme misogyny from TiFs.

If I had to guess, though, I would still say males perpetrate more (and more extreme) violence, and females are more likely to be victims.

Yes I'm doing mental gymnastics here trying to figure this out

Statistics would be useful if they showed what actually is being reported

I am also pretty sure that most transmen, if not celibate, are in relationships with other females.

Whereas transwomen can have a wife from before the transition, or a husband from after. Gay men aren't into transmen, but men who identify as heterosexual seem to be rather often interested in transwomen.

So how violent transmen are doesn't really play much of a role, they can only hurt other females.

The dynamics of who and who doesn't let themselves be bullied into a relationship that is against their sexual orientation would also be interesting to look at.

Yes I did look once and found a few publicised examples of men who'd stayed in relationships with women who became transmen. So it does happen... but still I think the figures are probably not going to show that people who are at birth recorded as female are perpetrators of DV as much as men...

But obviously if we knew we'd have any idea if it's true that simply being transgender makes you are more likely victim than being a natal female

But obviously if we knew we'd have any idea if it's true that simply being transgender makes you are more likely victim than being a natal female

How many people would you even be able to find who are "simply transgender" once you look closely at it?

In girls, transidentity is clearly correlated with autism. I don't know if autism is correlated with domestic violence, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. Not being able to predict other people's actions by the subtle clues of body language would make them easier prey for abusers.

Hating your own body, something which is in the definition of transsexuality (if not transgender) is connected to low self-esteem, which would lead transpeople to seek out abusive partners. What is responsible for the violence then, the transness or the self esteem issues?

I don't think it is possible to distangle in a serious study, though I have no doubt studies can be conducted and tweaked to yield the desired result.

First define "violence."

Most of the stuff I've read includes ridicule as violence and has a lot of wiggly words not citing a specific percentage.

It's undoubtedly out there, but pamphlets that talk about the "unique challenges" trans ppl face, vs the challenges a natal woman faces (loss of income, social disapproval, failure of the justice system to take them seriously, retributive violence which are not unique, I guess.)

TW and TM are no doubt subjected to abuse by male partners. Failure to specify how and who is either sheer negligence on the part of advocacy groups, or deliberate obfuscation.

It would be interesting if there was a serious study done on it but I think it goes for all victims of DV as to the reason you might be a victim - I was one

In my list of reasons why I'm sure self esteem, MH problems, childhood abuse, rape survivor, being in care in childhood and having been homeless at one time in life would add to the likelihood that I experienced DV, and I think once you have you are more likely to again. Obviously I will do my best to make sure that never happens but... I think it probably goes for anybody that some things make you more vulnerable to it

I just mentioned in the Daily Mail article thread the issue of lack of partner choice. I think whatever causes DV in relationships where a trans person is involved, we have to consider that staying in that relationship might be perceived as preferable to being alone. Trans people have a very small pool of potential partners (transwomen can often find males to have sex with them but not to have as partners, and there isn't a long list of females who want to have a "lesbian" relationship with a transwoman either) so perhaps that adds to the isolation victims of DV often suffer/are tricked into?
Transmen - usually they are with lesbians. However (and I might get told off for this) in their case the mood swings, aggression and increased sex drive caused by intentional overuse of the most potent anabolic steroid (testosterone) would suggest relationships might be more fraught and prone to conflict (verbal or physical). Just a thought.

That's another point... what is recorded as violence or domestic abuse

Saying online or in person on one occasion that someone isn't actually the sex that they are demanding you treat them as... is obviously different to a partner who belittles them every day for it, because that partner has agreed to a romantic relationship with a transgender person so would presumably know to use their preferred pronouns and be being emotionally abusive to refuse them or tease them about their gender dysphoria

Is domestic abuse being recorded as things outside of relationships? Or would that fall under hate crime rather than domestic abuse?

Argh sorry! Didn't mean to post thrice! Reported hoping they'll delete my duplicates

Not quite a DV survivor myself (I have other scars), but I did put on a pair of sneakers when I was young and go door to door to raise money to help build a shelter. DV requires an intimate relationship - intimate as in romantic relationship or familial ties.

I know the population is small, and it's hard to calculate with statistical accuracy, but that works both ways. You can't say they face 2xs the danger as one "factsheet" I read claimed unless you have numbers. You can't say they face none, unless you have numbers.

The thing with "literal violence", that drives me a bit nuts. Verbal abuse is a category of abuse which can be hurtful and harmful, but it's not violence. It's one category, as is controlling, stalking, shaming.

Beating and killing is violence, and that should leave a numeric trail.

Yes I feel a bit enraged every time I read about "literal violence" but I don't think it's the same thing as emotional abuse which is included in domestic abuse figures ... at least I've misunderstood if it is but I've only seen this phrase online by people claiming that someone have been "literally violent" by what they've said to them

That enrages me because it's annoying and it upsets you - call it that. Don't call it violent. You aren't trapped in it either... you simply block or ignore. DV victims can't ignore their abuse or escape it easily

"Transgender women are almost always portrayed as victims, with late-transitioning white computer programmers in the Home Counties weaponising the deaths of Brazilian transsexuals to bolster their standing in the oppression stakes."

From an excellent article

Mostly, the TG stats quoted by TRAs are from completely irrelevant sources.

FlyingOink Those are both good points, IMO. I believe fear of being alone is acknowledged to be one of the drivers for remaining in an abusive relationship; and of course we know about the effects of testosterone from its use by some sportswomen.

The small dating pool theory makes a lot of sense

I've never yet come across a transactivism-promoted statistic that stands up to scrutiny, so I'm afraid I don't believe this one. If it's ever evidenced without obfuscation, I'll believe it. But otherwise, no.

I haven’t look at the study in depth, but most of these that show men or trans women suffer high DV rates 8 crude things like “nagging” or “misgendering” as abuse.

In any event, even if it’s true, even if transwimen are being murdered by their partners at the same rate as women, what has that got to do with women? They can campaign for, fundraise for and volunteer at trans refuges and services. They can ride for murdered TW (less than one a year so pretty low commitment) the way Jean Hatchett does for women. This is not our problem to solve.

I'd be interested to know whether perpetrators of DV towards trans people are male or female partners. This is one of the reasons stats need to record by sex AND by chosen identity. And yes, very specific definitions of DV and which categories most apply, and if this differs between TW/TM and women as to what they most often experience. Do women's aid keep any stats on the percentage of men, transmen and transwomen attending their groups and needing emergency refuge provision?

I do wonder if any of the transwidow posters might predict their partner saying or perceiving they had been domestically abused in their relationship, as it does remind me of Lundy Bancroft's several comments in different books about how many men he worked with who were alleged victims of DV were themselves actually perpetrators, and their perception of what was fully justified for them to do to others but what was definitely abuse if it happened to them were very different.

I know somebody who was in a relationship with a cross dressing male.

He gaslit her loads and abused her in various ways.

But he said she 'misgendered' him and this counts as her having abused him.

4 out of 5 incidents of domestic violence against women are not reported.

Even so, West Yorkshire Police get a 999 call about a male on female domestic violence incident every 15 minutes. That's just West Yorkshire.

In the official crime statistics, the number of assaults against an individual woman are 'capped' at 5. She may have suffered 20 or 30 or more assaults.

Taking a random day in the year, Women's Aid turned away 90 women and 94 children for lack of capacity

www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/dec/14/domestic-abuse-violence-women-femicide-review-refuge-cuts-in-numbers

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/domesticabuseinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017

First, I haven’t RTFT

Does DV in this case mean DLV (domestic literal violence?) If so then possibly, although I still doubt it. If not, and we’re talking about boring old non brave and stunning DV, then no, I think we can pretty confidently say that that is not the case. Where are the two dead trans a week at the hands of their current or ex partner?

I'll be willing to bet money that this statistic is as robust and reliable as all their other ones.