What do you think 4th wave feminism is?

[Neurotrash]

I will probably regret asking...!

However I've just seen a fb acquaintance who I know is extremely upset about rape culture, sexism, pro me too etc but unlikely to be aware of more of the rad fem stuff going on, toasting 4th wave feminism after being involved in a local arts celebration of the suffragettes. Wearing a fabulous purple and green scarf that I'm v jealous of!

But I'm now a bit confused as I am beginning to think there are a few different perspectives. Could it be solely internet/ technology based? This is certainly a big factor in the spread of recent feminist theory, except it's helped all 'types' of feminism.

Thoughts?

I'm not able to reply and discuss a huge amount but I will be reading. Aka neurotrashwarrior.

I had no idea Titania was sent to reflection! 😱 I've lost the password to my rad twitter account in phone change overs.

So glad she's back. "You will never be Aswad". So good.

Yes Eresh. Bang on stumble.

I'm glad I did ask this question now, as ever, I'm still learning.

EH Carr would have had a field day with wiki, twitter et al.

The thing is, I was just thinking that it is important to delineate 'types' of feminism from the POV as to main ideology and who Celebrates it. 'Third wave fem' to me now clearly means pro porn, prostitution, centring penis etc which I have found important when trying to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Wouldn't call it feminism but so many do.

I think you are right to ask questions and this is an important thread. I hope you don't feel I was chiding you.

Second wave feminism was not just one thing or type of feminism. It embodied liberal feminism, marxist feminism, radical feminism, cultural feminism, socialist feminism and anarcho-feminism - all before trans and pomo hot the scene. I know. I was there :)

The so-called 3rd wave has its own roots going back.

Roz Kaveney was key to the formation of 'Feminists Against Censorship' and I was aware of FAC before Kaveney. They had a very finger-waggy style of delivery. As I was (without actually knowing what it was called) an anti-porn feminist -which was entirely intuitive for me. Being surrounded by men who consume a diet of women being horribly sexually degraded and abused on camera is not a good thing for women. It was a surprise to have FAC women chiming in, with that sort of sweeping slightly disdainful tone Sally Hines had on Women's Hour, about how feminist like me wanted to take away 'choice', 'agency', etc.

Also part of the '3rd wave' were some pro-sex industry feminists who had been around for a long time. Their rationale is, I suppose, what I see as pretty pessimistic, that men will always insists on women having unwanted sex with them and doing all the shit work, so the resolution is for women to insist on being paid for it rather than change the status quo. A group was called Wages For Housework which later morphed into 'Safety First'.

This sort of rationale is what the so-called '3rd wave' was all about. Very set in opposition to 2nd wavers rather than furthering the achievements of earlier feminists.

Sorry Spartacus didn't see your post.

No need to apologise - but in my view, FAC and Selma James and many pro-porn feminists and Pat Califia were part of the second, not third wave.

I don't think it helps to romanticise the second wave. It had its problems, as did the first.

I agree. I think the term '3rd wave' was deliberately manufactured as a way of sending out a big fake memo that 2nd wave/radical feminism was over.

I agree. I think the term '3rd wave' was deliberately manufactured as a way of sending out a big fake memo that 2nd wave/radical feminism was over

Maybe. But the second wave did not equal radical feminism. It really didn't.

Yes the second wave had its problems - (although I am not speaking as someone there at the time of course) Stephen Whittle and Erin Pizzey were part of radical feminism and totally went the other way.

Stephen Whittle and Erin Pizzey were part of radical feminism and totally went the other way

That's just part of it.

the second wave did not equal radical feminism. It really didn't

Yes, I suppose by conflating radical and 2nd wave feminism, it is sort of playing into the hands of those who think '3rd Wave' feminism is an actual thing.

I was first brought into this conflation when people where setting themselves out as not being of the so-called 3rd wave.

I was part of the second wave and had sympathies with radical feminism. I still do. But I'm not sure that radical feminism then and now is the same thing and I am not a radical feminist and I don't think that radical feminism has/had all the answers. I don't think that the success or failure of the second, third, fourth waves can be equated with the success or prevalence of RF.

I still think we are in the second wave and the big range still persists Radical, liberal, Marxist, Anarcho, Eco, etc. A lot of people overlap over different groups.

The pomo is not feminism imo.

No you weren't chiding like. I'm operating on v little sleep due to small baby plus getting over a virus. My area of experience is teaching and autism so this sort of discussion is both illuminating, helpful and mostly probably above my personal level of intelligence. I was glad I studied a level history though as I now realise it was probably the only smidge of critical thought I was offered.

Very useful thread.

Praps the answer is blue hair...

yet, what's your view of radical feminism?

I still think we are in the second wave and the big range still persists Radical, liberal, Marxist, Anarcho, Eco, etc. A lot of people overlap over different groups

I'll have to think about this. I do think that some pomo feminists either came from different traditions (French feminism) or raised different issues or tried to find ways to reconsider entrenched arguments (re mind/body dualities, etc.) and can be considered 'feminist'. I wonder if the main issues was the predominance of Judith Butler and also the misunderstanding of her?

yet, what's your view of radical feminism?

I need to get on and do something work but I do think that it changed from Kate Millett, Susan Brownmiller and Shulamith Firestone to Griffin, Dworkin, MacKinnon and Jeffries. At its heart, it is that the dominance of men over women (patriarchy) is the oldest and most fundamental form of oppression. But later forms of FR tended to focus on sexual issues - porn first and later prostitution to (say) the appropriation of women's labour by men. So now, lots of RFs happily live (in my view) in quite oppressive relationships with men where they do the bulk of the domestic labour (to the detriment of their financial independence) and celebrate their 'difference', and focus on how bad porn is - leaving aside some other very fundamental issues and vestiges of patriarchy.

I also need to think about this. I now see it's similar to the way 'schools of history' 'affect history' eg Marxist, Tory, Whig etc. I hadn't thought about it like this and yes I can see many over laps.

I have formed a strong personal view that I thought was leaning towards rad fem but I'm not fully sure now. It definitely incorporates gender and also an element of how media impacts all this. Media, film advertising etc. I see how these things affect the play and attitudes of young children.

I've just watched a school nativity and pondered on the fact that the dancing sparkly roles (including waggling bottoms almost akin to a twerk) were all girls plus a few other artistic gender stereotypes. Great play, just - sigh.

Ok thanks yet. I appreciate your reply.

Honestly - as I have grown up (I'm now in my fifties) I think that the fundamental issue is men's appropriation of women's labour in their interests. Under capitalism, we need financial independence and for domestic labour to be evenly split. I also think that women's liberation is not compatible with capitalism (or liberalism, or male-defined religion) - but that is another story.

Yes you are right.

This has happened to me.

I've mumsnetted rather than tidy up while baby naps. To further my education.

FWIW, a number of colleagues/ women I know have stated that becoming a sahm is not what they want due to the loss of financial independence. Despite it being extremely fucking hard.

I'm fighting tooth and nail to keep my part time job. (With my health and how I've developed it into a unique and valuable role) Dh also appears to be aware that if I didn't have it I'd loose that financial independence. However, we both often think it would make life happier, though then both recognise i would go stir fry crazy.

My OP is relatively wealthy. I could live quite comfortably as his SAHP. However, I would rather choose my poorer existence with financial independence (such that it is). As a woman once said to me - you are one man from welfare. Also, I don't believe in benevolent dictators.

the fundamental issue is men's appropriation of women's labour in their interests

Yes this