Page 24 | Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

R0wantrees · 17/12/2018 21:49

Well thats an astoundingly shitty thing to say

Vulnerable female prisoners who didn't want to share space with a male person convicted of violent , sexual crimes.

KayM2 · 17/12/2018 21:53

badstyley;
Bloody good post. Very fair..... except for one thing...…

I am NOT trying to dominate. I just aren't. I have no wish to, or ability to ,dominate. I am a quietly spoken, halting, sometimes stammering, booky person who is not now nor ever has been a " domineering " type. And I'm acutely socially phobic.

What obviously looks to you and others like an attempt to dominate is, to me, an attempt to defend myself, and other like me, from what I see as unfair and prejudiced treatment My style, I'm afraid is didactic. I left school at 16, and got my education from books!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/12/2018 21:54

Absolutely r0wan

I can see why you thought that was a shoddy thing to say about women

Or misogynistic if you like

R0wantrees · 17/12/2018 21:57

What obviously looks to you and others like an attempt to dominate is, to me, an attempt to defend myself, and other like me, from what I see as unfair and prejudiced treatment My style, I'm afraid is didactic

didactic

adjective
-intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.

-in the manner of a teacher, particularly so as to appear patronizing.

AngryAttackKittens · 17/12/2018 21:58

It's just repulsive, the attitude behind that comment. So many layers of misogynistic contempt.

R0wantrees · 17/12/2018 22:02

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer

Anne Ruzylo described some of the impacts on vulnerable female prisoners in her speech in Manchester, Standing for Women meeting.
Also significant comment from prison officers.

(from 28:00)

KayM2 · 17/12/2018 22:02

Rowantrees; My STYLE is didactic, I said. I said I had got my education from (self read) books. My style is didactic. NOT my intentions. That was me being me being honest about a failing that I know I have, which is to use long sentence with lost of clauses, and a style that comes from books. A clue was in the acute social phobia thing; I am not good at social interactions or small talk.

What re you trying to establish? Why not just ignore my posts, which you often try to find things to dislike in? Just trundle on, why not?

Hamster00 · 17/12/2018 22:04

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R0wantrees · 17/12/2018 22:04

Just responding, its a discussion.
I always try to read carefully what's said.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 17/12/2018 22:04

Thank you for the link r0wan

AngryAttackKittens · 17/12/2018 22:09

Thing is, what Kay is saying is basically just a more polite version of what that guy said about the way the women in prison - we're meant to just shut up and accept whatever it's decided is going to happen to our spaces, and if we object we're the problem.

LangCleg · 17/12/2018 22:17

I am shit hot at crochet (also modest about it, natch!) and was taught by my bestest auntie. It's probably the only stereotypically girly thing I'm any good at and every time I make something, I think of her. She was the best.

AAK is right. Love your rellies!

(Unless they compel your speech and go into full-on narc meltdown if you fail to comply.)

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 17/12/2018 22:21

yes, clearly the women here objecting to the boundary pushing on show are women who ' choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. '

right?

Badstyley · 17/12/2018 22:34

Kay Thank you for your response to my post.

*KayM2

badstyley;
Bloody good post. Very fair.....*

Then Kay. Kay Kay Kay Kay

*except for one thing...…

I am NOT trying to dominate. I just aren't. I have no wish to, or ability to ,dominate. I am a quietly spoken, halting, sometimes stammering, booky person who is not now nor ever has been a " domineering " type. And I'm acutely socially phobic.

What obviously looks to you and others like an attempt to dominate is, to me, an attempt to defend myself, and other like me, from what I see as unfair and prejudiced treatment My style, I'm afraid is didactic. I left school at 16, and got my education from books!*

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

Badstyley · 17/12/2018 22:36

Sorry for the bold fail. I’ll go away and work on it.

KayM2 · 18/12/2018 00:07

re weriseup's post 19.56.43

Re grandparent's role, where one may be transsexual.

Most people tend to think that in practice the person who does the grandaddying, or the grannying, is to the child the grandad or granny.

Even if they are not a blood relation. One of my children's granddads, a man who did a splendid job, had never had kids of his own. One of their "actual " grandparents was useless, and had no contact with them.

All my grandchildren have only ever known me in the female social role, so to them it is not an issue. This seems to be a common experience. In my case, I adore my grandchildren, and am the fittest and most available for babysitting / picking up from school, etc.

Children are very accepting of varied families that these days are often not at all "traditionally standard", aren't they? . Two mothers, two fathers, multiple step parents and step siblings. As a species, we are adaptable. If the right love and care is there, the child generally grows up happy and confident. They do not care a fig for adult hangups,and why should they? .

AngryAttackKittens · 18/12/2018 00:15

Women who care about male bodies in sex segregated spaces have "hangups".

See what I mean about the similarities to the bloke who commented on women in prison "enjoying conflict"?

FloralBunting · 18/12/2018 00:26

I really think this thread is lacking enough unnecessary autobiographical details. Can anyone add some more?

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 00:35

from the open letter in The Times signed by some people who are transsexuals:

we condemn the threats, harassment and intimidation of women who argue that sex-based protections are vital in a society still punctuated by sexism. Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity. We are concerned that women are being dehumanised as “TERFs” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) in order for abusive males to unleash misogynistic rhetoric and violent abuse with impunity.

Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity

woman
female
daughter
mother
grandmother
lesbian

mirandayardley · 18/12/2018 00:45

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R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 01:22

It would be good to be able to discuss the focus of the letter eg the treatment of women (adult human females) by trans activists.

Perhaps tomorrow?

KayM2 · 18/12/2018 02:57

yes, Rownatrees, lets do that.

Lets discuss it, though. Actually discuss, not just make broad statements bout how awful they are, that anybody could agree with, and leave it at that.

"They" are not be just one body, who all know each other, and plan things together.Just as " Feminists" or " Transsexuals" are not one coherent group, the TRAs are not. And they are young and many are immature. Can that weakness be used to divide and defeat them?

Lets discuss, perhaps, ways in which the less extreme ones could be encouraged to " peel off", and be "educated". Or ways in which the worst offenders can be be identified and prosecuted or otherwise discouraged.

I would much rather do that than spend time trying to defend myself and others like me against what they would probably see as " in house " attacks, and then get accused of making it " all about me" for defending myself.

There were less at the Reading WPUK meeting; is that because Bristol is a particular centre of those ideas, or is it because some are getting bored with what they thought was a "fun game". Will it be just a hard core who carry on with the nonsense?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 18/12/2018 04:41

Of course it's good to highlight and condemn extreme behaviour. It's never right to attempt to stop people meeting and talking by intimidation and violence.

The problem with only focusing on these examples is that it is extreme behaviour by a few people who do not hold any direct power or influence.

When people in the media, policians and policy makers, using less extreme language and no platforming, paint women as bigots for wanting sex segregation, it is dangerous, because these people can remove sex segregation and safeguarding policies.

I'm far more concerned that Shami Chakrabart said
"How can I put it - I am not the sex police. I don't want to police the borders between these segregated sexes and I'm not going to say to any refugee or migrant to my sex that you don't belong over here. And you know what, if you lock the house too tightly, you might just die in the fire. And what I want is not to be more segregated but to be less so, and I want us, in the end, to all be human."

than I am that some random 18 year old wearing a scarf over their face and holding a placard.

Also, I'm worried about the normalisation of male people in previously female only spaces, because it stops women and girls being able to define their boundaries.

It's important to realise that activism takes many forms, and it isn't just threats of violence that are dangerous.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 18/12/2018 04:43

Shami Chakrabarti

deepwatersolo · 18/12/2018 07:06

How does Shami envision in this scenario that ‚locking the house too tightly‘ might get women ‚killed in the fire?‘ What specific threats for women does Shami see in sex segregated spaces? (Except for some TRAs literally setting fire on them while chanting ‚die in a Fire, TERFs!‘)

AIBU that I want politicians, who use nonsensical killer phrases and metaphors in order to stop debate, to be fined, each time they do it? Something like 25% of their salary would be reasonable, I think, so that doing it 4 times a month will leave them penniless for the month.
Might also increase their understanding of the challenges their austerity brings to the people they ‚serve‘.