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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

682 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 08/12/2018 00:23

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
LeanneMills1961 · 14/12/2018 00:26

And I'm also very grateful to all who have written such kind words tonight, coming at the end of a week which was the most difficult I've known in years. You're all stars.

calpop · 14/12/2018 00:51

My heart goes out to you Leanne. I wish you could have found happines just being yourself. I have a child who is non gender comforming and so far they just seem to be happy as they are. I dont understand why the TRAs are trying to reverse decades of progress since your transistion.

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 08:30

Bullying and coercive control by some seems to run almost unchecked.
That national newspapers can be so controlled by a single-interest lobby group should be deeply worrying to all.
Julie Bindel and Janice Turner have described this week the impact of trans-activists on their work as journalists.

Janice Turner in The Times, 'On Trans Totalitarianism'

Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals
BeUpStanding · 14/12/2018 08:53

Leanne - Thank you for your courage and honesty Flowers

BeUpStanding · 14/12/2018 09:03

And I know I shouldn't be shocked by anything any more, but how do TRAs not see the hypocrisy of demanding every individual has the right to identify as whatever they want, while simultaneously denying Leanne the right to identify as "transsexual"?

Threewheeler1 · 14/12/2018 09:11

Flowers Leanne
Huge respect for your openess and bravery in this current climate.
Just been reading your story.
Thank you for speaking out, you've done a very courageous thing. So important to hear voices like yours.
Take care.

cantgetridofthekids · 14/12/2018 09:18

how do TRAs not see the hypocrisy of demanding every individual has the right to identify as whatever they want, while simultaneously denying Leanne the right to identify as "transsexual"?

This is the problem.... historically and rightly so transsexual is a medical diagnosis for those with Gender Dysphoria. For those who would be unable to get the diagnosis the solution as they see it is to demedicalise and self id. The medical condition gets turned into a lifestyle choice.

Transsexual people get it from both sides. Indeed I got abuse last night for stating I was transsexual and against self id.

Irrespective of people's views on women's spaces there is no denying that historically those biological men who were using them were a very small number who were medically assessed.

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 14/12/2018 09:22

Leanne - I've just read your story. It's heartbreaking - I really feel for you.

Thank you for being so honest about your truth to help others (and especially the young) decide what's right for them - and for speaking out despite the hostility that you know you may receive from some quarters.

Please don't let any of that get you down. It's a tiny minority and as the comments show you have so much support.

You have my full admiration and I wish you well. 💐💐

cantgetridofthekids · 14/12/2018 09:26

This is my opinion but I've been comparing the differences between transsexual and modern transgender agenda....it is a generalisation not true in every case.

TG loves their body and is proud of their lady penis.
TS is ashamed and embarrassed by their body and sees it as a birth defect

TG argues TWAW
TS accepts the realities and acknowledges biological sex can't be changed

TG tramples womens rights
TS look to establish common ground and work with women on solutions

TG is proud to shout their transition from the rooftops
TS has been through a medical process and comes to transition at the end of a long journey

TG accepts sexual motivation perfectly valid
TS is about an inner conflict, often for years typically causing many comorbid mental health issues

TG says anyone should be able to change gender easily just be declaring it
TS wants self id scrapped and continued medicalisation

Melamin · 14/12/2018 09:31

I have just read the article in the Mail. It feels so realistic. I loved the pictures.

There are a lot of supportive comments underneath it. I think a lot of people do understand, and Leanne has connected with them.

I hope that your other press contacts come good for you, Lianne. It can't be an easy process to go through for someone who is thoughtful and lives a quiet life. But it is so good to hear from speaking out for themselves.

VickyEadie · 14/12/2018 09:41

LeanneMills1961

Just read the Mail article and your comments on this thread.

Stay around on this forum (and Mumsnet generally, which can be a good source of contacts, help, advice and laughs, especially AIBU - to which I go when I need cheering up!) - you're very welcome here.

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 09:56

Irrespective of people's views on women's spaces there is no denying that historically those biological men who were using them were a very small number who were medically assessed.

I think the medical assessment process is often flawed though.
Many people who have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria might have been better helped by the medical profession if other very relevent factors were identified and nuanced support was available for these.

Abuse, childhood trauma, homophobia etc seem often also present in people's stories. If this is the case, contextualising it as transsexualism lessens the possibility of healing from what may be the source/s of the dysphoria.

I was so struck by Debbie's story. She was diagnosed with gender dysphoria, underwent full medical transition without her PTSD as a result of being sexually abused as a child being identified.

Mirror November 2018 (also in Mail)
(extract)
"After undergoing years of counselling, he says he has finally discovered he wasn't transgender. Instead, he says, he was a woman suffering with horrific complex PTSD after years of sexual abuse.

"Looking back now I realise that it was simply a feeling that if I didn't have a vagina, I couldn't be raped," he revealed.

"I feel completely 'mutilated'," he added.

He has spoken out on the 'taboo' subject of gender reassignment reversal to encourage others to seek talking therapy before surgery.

He says he should never have been allowed to transition, claiming sexual abuse sparked his dissatisfaction with his female body.

He alleges his father raped and abused him when he was a teenager, but died five years ago, before he could be charged.

Now, he looks in the mirror "through the eyes of that terrified 15-year-old girl and see this funny little man staring back at me".

He said: "I wish I could turn back the clock and just have the foresight of what the nightmare the next 15 years would be.

"I'm a woman I'm not meant to be a bloke. I'm trapped. It's a complete mess - where do you even start? I just regret the decision.

"There is this myth that when an individual 'changes gender' they go into hospital one gender and come out 'all done'. That isn't the case, there are years of surgeries and hormones for the rest of your life.

"The session where I realised this was so bad that I had a complete break down and panic attack because I realised it was a huge mistake.

"It should never have happened. It was a big wake up call.

"I was traumatised by what had happened in my life and it was misdiagnosed as being transgender.

"I was vulnerable, I just though that if I wasn't a girl my life would be different, I would be different, I would be accepted and that would be it.

"I thought that becoming a man would make me worthy and I would become a different person."

He added: "I'm not a man, I am an approximation of a man.

"I wish I could wake up as Debbie and realise that the last 15 years were just as bad a nightmare."

Lee primarily blames his father for what has happened to him.

But he says he believes the private psychiatrist who started off his transition should have "picked up on the fact I was abused".

"I should have had help somewhere along the line," he said.

"Nobody ever raised the idea that I could feel like this due to trauma. Not once - until it was all done.

"I have spent my life despising my own body.

"It's so inhumane to feel that was about your own body. But the fact is I now know I rejected my body because of the way my father treated me." (continues)
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/im-still-debbie-man-reveals-13532989

Like Leanne, Debbie was motivated to share her story to try to help others. I hope people with influence in transgender communities listen to them & reflect.
Flowers

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 14/12/2018 10:05

Leanne - echoing what VickyEadie said below - please do stay around on the forum. Your insights would be appreciated and you will have lots of support here.

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 10:09

Welcome to MN, Leanne. Glad to see the Mail did, in fact, publish.

Perhaps it's time we got back to the topic of the letter to the Times, which is to condemn violence against and intimidation of women.

The thread seems to have devolved into centring something else altogether - clue: not women - and I am sure the signatories intended that to be the central message taken away, rather than a vehicle for collecting congratulations and an opportunity to advocate for selves. Right? Or not right? Beginning to wonder. Perhaps our TS friends here could confirm?

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 10:18

This is my opinion but I've been comparing the differences between transsexual and modern transgender agenda....it is a generalisation not true in every case.

cantgetridofthekids
They are closely interlinked though.
There was discussion about this yesterday evening on the thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448102-why-my-transgender-son-dosent-want-self-id?pg=9

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 10:22

Perhaps it's time we got back to the topic of the letter to the Times, which is to condemn violence against and intimidation of women.

The thread seems to have devolved into centring something else altogether - clue: not women - and I am sure the signatories intended that to be the central message taken away, rather than a vehicle for collecting congratulations and an opportunity to advocate for selves. Right? Or not right? Beginning to wonder. Perhaps our TS friends here could confirm?

THis ^^

BirdseyeFrozen · 14/12/2018 10:52

I certainly don't see it as "an opportunity to advocate for selves" LangCleg

There has been a letter in the Times from transsexual women which dissociated themselves from the TRA agenda.

There has been a discussion around that on this thread and empathy expressed to people. There has also been criticism, and some nasty hate speech towards one TS contributor which has since been deleted.

It is my choice to contribute to the thread. It took guts to speak out and distance themselves from the TRA agenda.

It does not mean that I am losing sight of the wider issues of Safeguarding, and violence against women and children nor the attempted erosion of Women's Rights.

It does not detract from the violence and intimidation I have experienced in my life as a woman and have called out and always will.

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 11:06

I certainly don't see it as "an opportunity to advocate for selves"

Nevertheless, and curiously enough, very little of this thread is about TRA behaviour towards women - purportedly the point of this letter. You might not wonder why this might be. I certainly do.

What is the difference between TRAs directing conversation to centre themselves and sideline women's issues and TRAs directing conversation to centre themselves and sideline women's issues

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 11:07

pressed send too soon

? on the end

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 11:08

and second TRA should be TS

Sorry!

cantgetridofthekids · 14/12/2018 11:28

comparing TRA to TS ? extremely unhelpful.

Thingybob · 14/12/2018 11:32

Just want to add my voice to give a big thanks to Leanne who is centering women and girls by speaking up xx

R0wantrees · 14/12/2018 11:36

comparing TRA to TS ? extremely unhelpful.

Trans-rights activism takes many forms.
Some TS are activists advocating for trans rights.

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 11:40

extremely unhelpful

But can you answer the question? What''s the difference if both groups direct conversation to themselves and not women?

At what point do we centre women? Twelfth of never if any male people are involved.

LangCleg · 14/12/2018 11:43

The letter is about women. The thread is not.

I'd say to everyone reading: reflect on why that is.

Swipe left for the next trending thread