"A quarter of uk adults think that marital sex without consent is not rape."

[Tackytriceratops]

Article.

Fucking hell.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/06/quarter-of-adults-think-marital-sex-without-consent-is-not-uk-survey-finds?CMP=fb_gu

It doesn't surprise me.

As PP touched on, there seems to be something in the wording too.

DW's ex-husband is adamant that he never raped her, but he's admitted knowing she hated sex and that he "had to" hold her down.

DW's ex-husband is adamant that he never raped her, but he's admitted knowing she hated sex and that he "had to" hold her down.

Not in front of a court of law, I suppose? That'd be rather interesting to watch.

Imagine that happening with any other crime. "No, I didn't steal anything! I just took it and put it in my pocket and didn't pay for it! I had to be careful to not get caught because they don't like people taking stuff without paying. Totally different!"

"The only thing out of that shit show that gives me hope is that younger people are less likely to buy in to rape myths than their older counterparts" not necessarily I've overheard a few of dds friends coming out with appalling tripe, and I've seen other surveys of youngsters views that had appalling results, and comments on FB when there's a big trial on are shocking!

“"It is appalling that a third of men think if a woman has flirted on a date she is asking for it,” Coffey said. “These are all potential future jurors." I think it's worse than that, these are potential or actual rapists!

"So this is grim ... not just because those people might sit on juries." Exactly!

"More than half of people thought a woman who had never had sex would suffer more harm from rape than any other woman who was raped, while 11% believed that a woman who had had a lot of sexual partners would be less harmed if she wwas raped compared with any other woman." This makes me REALLY angry! The woman's "morals" being used to justify a rape being "less harmful" utter bollocks!!

In my opinion we need to start with judges. Some of the judges commentaries on rapes are disgusting! Make them all undertake me courses to disabuse them of their WRONG beliefs, ban them from making victim blaming statements, personally I think rape should carry a mandatory sentence of at least 25 years with no parole and full life tariff if ANY violence involved.

Stop this bullshit of what the victim was wearing, their sex life prior to the rape being AT ALL admissible in court, it's completely irrelevant.

BUT prior similar behaviour by the accused should be admitted it IS relevant!

"I think there needs to be some sort of massive public education campaign on consent and rape." Totally agree!

More adverts similar to this

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RzDr18UYO18

"How is suggesting that consent is implied within the confines of an intimate relationship "rapey"?" You REALLY need to ask? Because women are no longer legally male possessions, our bodies are not theirs, we have autonomy and consent is NOT implied it must be sought including within a relationship.

"keeping her stuck in a situation where she cannot escape because she is financially reliant on him and scared he will harm the kids if you leave him." Even worse now due to austerity policies taking us back to the fucking dark ages where women are trapped in joint UC claims with their abusers, where to get the benefits they NEED to FEED the children created by the abuse they have to PROVE the abuse! Putting them AND the children at more risk! It's barbaric!

"When you love and fancy each other to bits, surely you can assume consent is implied unless told otherwise?" No! Down that road lies more abuse victims.

"DH would of course have stopped immediately if I wasn’t in the mood." You were lucky enough to not be with someone abusive. You sound like a confident assertive woman. For other women their dh starting is pressure, coercion that they don't feel powerful enough to refuse. The law doesn't exist for the couples where there isn't abuse, it exists for those where there is.

"the judge directs the jury about what constitutes rape, reasonable belief etc before they go off to make their verdict." Judges are among the worst rape apologists going!

"Judge Lindsey Kushner QC said women were entitled to "drink themselves into the ground" but their "disinhibited behaviour" could put them in danger." "

"A 12-year-old rape victim has spoken of her devastation after her attacker was spared jail because a judge thought she had been an "active participant" in sex with him."

"Mr justice males...said the pair had taken advantage of the woman's inebriated state, she had been 'extremely foolish' for getting so drunk"

"The judge said they must carefully assess the evidence and determine if someone “may have tailored [their] evidence accordingly”." This was the Irish

"And she explained a series of inconsistencies in case and asked the jury to decide if any of the inconsistencies could amount to “a lie”"

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/rugby-union/paddy-jackson-rape-trial-charges-12261321

While judges are still so shitty to victims we've no chance!

Judges like this need to be stripped of their credentials, such actions are completely unacceptable!

Sorry should say this was the Irish rugby players rape trial.

Which was an absolute fucking farce as was ched Evans'

Let's face it if you're a mc+ white guy you can rape whoever the hell you like and really don't need to worry too much about potential consequences.

If you're rich/famous, both it could be captured on fucking cctv with the victim CLEARLY defending herself and screaming NO and they'd STILL get away with it!

For example, most people would agree that a woman who was jogging through a park and subsequently attacked by a stranger, beaten and seriously sexually assaulted was "raped". But when they as asked to consider the possibility that a husband having sex with his drunk wife, was guilty to the same level of culpability as the stranger in the park, most can't reconcile the two. That's the problem. It's not a misunderstanding of what the word rape means. It's the idea that all men are guilty to the same degree, regardless of circumstances.

I largely suspect that the figures are as they are because it is so common for women to be raped or have coercive sex that their responses were influenced by this. Otherwise that would be an awful lot of respondents who would have the dawning realisation that they themselves were either rapists or victims of rape.

Eg "Well that can't be rape because I/my husband do/does that and I'm/he's not a rapist!!"

I know Hestia, anything else and people would shake their heads at his ridiculous logic. I do wonder if he's that convinced he had the right that he would admit it in court as long as they dallied around the word rape.

He now plays for sympathy that he was married to a woman who later came out as gay, and it is sickening how DW's family fawn all over him and tell him how difficult it must have been for him. They know what he did to her, they simply just don't believe it could have been rape.

As someone upthread said, framing the question around "penetration without consent" might get a more useful set of responses. Rape is a loaded word, people understand it as a monstrous crime, see it in the context of war, stranger attack, abduction, murder. It's not surprising that people don't want to think of their brother, father, friend or indeed husband as someone who could do that, someone who is capable of horrific, life-destroying actions. It's easier to go straight to denial rather than unpick the challenging societal norms that allow this to happen.

I think that sadly all we can do is change the narrative with young people and try to effect meaningful changes in attitudes over time. My solution, if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women. Men generally (not specifically, but generally) just don't get it. Come at me if you like, you won't change my mind.

My solution, if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women. Men generally (not specifically, but generally) just don't get it. Come at me if you like, you won't change my mind

Sorry but that is just nonsense. Female judges and defence counsel are just as bad. There was a female judge in the Irish rugby trial. A female judge in Scotland gave a non custodial sentence in a case involving a man who admitted raping a 12-year-old girl (ie too young to consent) because she thought there were exceptional circumstances. These are not isolated examples.

I can't remember his name but the most scathing comments about rapists and heaviest sentencing have been made by an English male judge.

My solution, if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women.

Good idea, but I think we need to narrow that group even more.
To women who never had a sexual relationship with a man. Or perhaps at least to those who are currently single.

A lot of women are in denial about what was/is done to them.

Still not a perfect solution, since some women start victim-blaming before they themselves become victims, in order to feel safe, but it would be a start.

I have long held the view that most rapists do not believe they are rapists. This is why they are outstanding and astonished if they are actually accused of anything and defend their actions with absolute conviction.

I can't remember his name but the most scathing comments about rapists and heaviest sentencing have been made by an English male judge.

Men who aren't rapists have the most independent point of view, as they don't have to justify their own crimes, nor deny something done to them or victim-blame to feel safer on the streets.

But men who are rapists are the most biased. Removing men would remove the extremes.

This is probably not the reason why Vestal Virgins were considered the most trustworthy witnesses in ancient Rome, but women removed from general rape culture would be most likely to have an unbiased point of view.

I do not agree at all that women only judges are the answer. I've read far too many appalling case reports involving female judges.

Agree - which was the judge who warned women last year to not put themselves in danger of being victimised?

The female judge

I have a sneaking suspicion the reason the figures are higher for the older generation is because they have had more time to commit rape. Or be raped. So if you asked a group of 60 year old men "is it rape if you have sex without consent with your wife" a fairly substantial percentage of the men will have had sex with their wives without consent, if you think of the number of women who are raped by their partners. They probably know this is rape but don't want to admit they are rapists, so they have to say it's not rape. Again with women they probably know they have been raped but don't want to admit it.

The younger generation, probably a smaller percentage have committed rape so you get lower percentages. I hope it's that attitudes are changing but tbh I think most people do know what rape is, but to admit to knowing you have to admit to yourself that you've either been raped or raped someone. I think everyone knows it's wrong to have sex with someone who doesn't consent.

People think differently about the violent attack and the man raping his wife because the first one they know they wouldn't do, the second one they think they would. Or they think someone they know has, they can see it being them and so they have to say it's not rape. It's not that they think they 're different levels of wrong it's that one is closer to home.

There was a study of US college male students in which 12% (I think) admitted forcing a woman to have (physically) but did not describe them as committing rape or being a rapist.

So yes- people don't want to admit they're rapists, definitely

As a victim myself I know it's taken a long time to accept that I am. I would much, much prefer not to have been a victim- denial is a powerful psychological defence.

"I have a sneaking suspicion the reason the figures are higher for the older generation is because they have had more time to commit rape. Or be raped."

I suspect that, too.

It would be nice if attitudes were really changing, but I am not so sure.
There's probably a bit of a change, but some of it might just be the idealism of young women who haven't yet been raped in a relationship.

(With the men, I am not so sure ... they'd know from the start whether they would do it or not, wouldn't they? And date rape is mostly committed by young men.)

Is that the very old ones, or the very badly educated ones?

Or the religiously bizarre?

"if I was put in charge tomorrow, would be to have all rapes prosecuted, tried, judged and sentenced by women" women are JUST as guilty of rape apologism as men. Iirc those judges I was quoting only 1 was a man!

"I have long held the view that most rapists do not believe they are rapists. This is why they are outstanding and astonished if they are actually accused of anything and defend their actions with absolute conviction." I agree this is true of a certain type of rapist. The ones who rape 'non violently' especially within a relationship, date rapists etc.

Older folk were also socialised to think rape was only "stranger dragging woman into an alleyway" type offence. They're also more socialised into misogyny generally and I say that as hardly a spring chicken myself! At 46 I certainly know plenty of my generation who think eg intimately touching a sleeping partner is ok and it's far from just the men that think that.

I can't even. It's like a constant barrage of reasons to just give up on society. What a depressing, gut wrenching, soul quashing statistic. Or in other words, fucking hell. Fucking hell that this shit is still needing fighting.

Seniorschoolmum

Is that the very old ones, or the very badly educated ones?

Or the religiously bizarre?

Ffs what an ignorant post.

I studied law between 1977- 1981. I was taught in criminal law class that a husband could not be found guilty of rape although he might be found guilty of assault or sexual assault.

In 1988 Alan Rodger, QC, the then Solicitor-General argued this was not a correct interpretation of the Common Law of Scotland and his view was upheld by 3 judges in the Court of Appeal in 1989.

Older folk were also socialised to think rape was only "stranger dragging woman into an alleyway" type offence.

A family friend is in her 90s. Her husband beat her and coerced sex on their wedding night. She's never once thought otherwise than she was raped, irrespective of the law's perspective for much of her life.

Older folk were also socialised to think rape was only "stranger dragging woman into an alleyway" type offence. They're also more socialised into misogyny generally and I say that as hardly a spring chicken myself! At 46 I certainly know plenty of my generation who think eg intimately touching a sleeping partner is ok and it's far from just the men that think that.

I am not so sure things got better.

There was a man on a thread on prostitution who expressed surprise that punters now openly admitted to what they did - he was used to men who go to prostitutes being considered absolute losers.
They also, I suppose, didn't watch as much violent porn.

I suppose in previous times, socialisation in such matters was much more dependent on what kind of family you grew up in.
People didn't talk so openly about sex, after all.

And when we talk about people being socialised ... we should always ask the question: By whom were they socialised to be so, and why would that have changed now?

There was a man on a thread on prostitution who expressed surprise that punters now openly admitted to what they did - he was used to men who go to prostitutes being considered absolute losers.

Legalized Prostitution In Germany Looks Like A Living Nightmare

When German anti-prostitution advocates talk about the situation of prostitution in Germany, we hear the same responses, over and over: “You’ve got to be kidding!” or “How is this possible?” When we do presentations in other countries, people in the audience will often start to cry or ask for a break after 15 minutes to get some fresh air. The same presentations in Germany cause outrage as well, but we’ve noticed that people have become so accustomed to the situation, their emotional response is subdued. In fact, German men will often openly and proudly out themselves as sex buyers at abolitionist events. There is no shame in being a commercial sex buyer in Germany. This is an obvious and alarming sign that decades of legalized prostitution have shaped society.

fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-legalized-prostitution-industry-looks-like-a-real-life-horror-movie/

We weren't married but I had a big row with an ex boyfriend and went up to bed early. The next morning my ex boasted to me in front of a friend how he had had sex with me whilst I was asleep. We had both had a drink and I was out cold. Now if we had been married that would have been rape as much as it was with us not being married. I felt disgusting, ashamed with myself for going to bed drunk, it was awful.

Being married does not mean you can no longer be raped by your husband! Absolutely shocking anyone could think otherwise.