Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia

[NotTerfNorCis]

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Thought people might be interested in this article. One thing that strikes me is the 'reducing women to their biology' argument. Don't transwomen 'know' they're not male because their body feels wrong? Then it is about biology isn't it? Otherwise why do they think they're female?

I wish Eve good luck with finding them penis inclusive TWAW allies among working class women, or 'brown', Muslim women

I distinctly remember a poster informing us that she had worked with Muslim women in the UK who were a-ok with having penis holders in their personal space and so this could be generalised to all Muslim women.

Of course, said poster was not able to distinguish between a university and a legislative body, ie parliament. Nor did they seem to realise that there is no overarching authority in Islam or that there are multiple branches of Islam and Islamic jurisprudence...

Allies should be wary of how much space they are taking up in conversation about liberation activism, and in who they might be speaking over when they choose to talk

Yes, laydeez. Shut up and let the men talk.

I had hoped that article was something that Eve had knocked out quickly over a day or so. Not something that she "worked on for a while"

The description of her was specific to her sharing of the malicious, widespread myth that 'feminists were hiding razor blades' behind the 'women don't have penises' stickers. She also implied that the 'side' behind the stickers as 'evil'

I know. But the cap fits. I remember her clueless woke cool girl tweets about something else.

In fact when I read that phrase I went to check if it was me who said it originally!

All my life my womanhood has been reduced to stupid words such as bird, cow, slag, frigid b, insulted because I won't put out and insulted when i do), insulted because I'm fat, insulted because i'm a sahm (I support all women regardless), now I am called a damn cis woman. NO NO NO NO NO! I am a woman end of. I support trans people but do not denigrate me any further to enhance your cause! or make me accept that someone with the biology of a man is allowed into my FEMALE SPACE.

"There's been lots of good writing about Mumsnet recently but here's an in-depth piece I've worked on for a while".

Oh, dear. That was a bit of an own-goal, wasn't it, Eve?

"There's been lots of good writing about Mumsnet recently but here's an in-depth piece I've worked on for a while".

I wonder which ones Eve is referring to?

Spectator article?
'Mumsnet and the British media aren’t ‘transphobic’'
by Robert Jackman
(extract)

"This is why many British newspapers have expressed concerns about the GRA reform: not because of any underlying bigotry but because it seeks to apply a fringe ideological conviction to an immensely complicated question.

Oddly, the Outline lays the blame for this supposed media bigotry at an unlikely door: Mumsnet. The article claims that some of Mumsnet’s 14 million users have developed an “obsession” with transgender issues. It’s true that transgender issues are frequently discussed on Mumsnet – but why assume this is down to bigotry, rather than the fact that many of these concerns (the housing of male sex offenders in women’s prisons, for example) resonate deeply with the women of Middle England?

The writer isn’t wrong that Mumsnet holds deep influence – just not necessarily with the media. When I spoke to someone who knows the consultation well, they mentioned the “Mumsnet effect” – the fact that the Government had received cautious responses from women all over the UK, representing all ages and backgrounds. The responses calling for the more ideological system, however, tended to be concentrated in smaller clusters, usually from London and university cities – places which typically vote Labour.

Ultimately it will be this kind of political pragmatism which will probably persuade ministers against uprooting the GRA system. Blaming it on the Times and the Guardian might seem tempting – but it’s ultimately untrue."
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mumsnet-and-the-british-media-arent-transphobic/

or the Outine article by Edie Miller referred to?

'Why is British media so transphobic?
Turns out homeopathy haters and mums are partly responsible'

theoutline.com/post/6536/british-feminists-media-transphobic?zd=2&zi=gxa67qdo

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3415244-hilarious-article
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416273-The-Spectator-Mumsnet-and-the-British-media-aren-t-transphobic

had hoped that article was something that Eve had knocked out quickly over a day or so. Not something that she "worked on for a while"

Yes, as I said earlier I assumed she had probably written it on the bus.

Then of course there was the Wired article by By AMELIA TAIT
19 November 2018

'Mumsnet moderators are struggling to find the line between free speech and transphobia
Famed for asking politicians about their favourite biscuits, Mumsnet has courted controversy with its handling of debates on trans issues'

(extract)
"Arguably, things are improving, but the website remains contentious. Susie Green, the chair of Mermaids UK, a charity which supports gender variant and transgender children, says Mumsnet “still has some work to do if it wants to be seen as an inclusive forum.”

“Constantly, we see anti-trans narratives on there. There are well known anti-trans activists that are on there that are allowed to stay,” she says, explaining that in the past she has had to threaten legal action to get Mumsnet posts that she claims were defamatory removed. “Mumsnet has now got a reputation for allowing those narratives to continue… I think the reason they changed their moderation policies was because it was starting to affect revenue, because the people who advertise on Mumsnet were starting to realise that their adverts were being published alongside hate.” (continues)

concludes:
For Michael, his biggest regret is “spending so much time on vexatious complaints”. Although Mumsnet moderators and their moderation policies are unique in many ways, this appears to be an experience shared by moderators across the web. “A small minority of correspondents are never going to accept your decisions,” he says. “‘Keep it short’ took a while to learn.”

www.wired.co.uk/article/mumsnet-moderators-trans-rights-debate

check: Emma Healey, Penis Beaker, Biscuits

or this one?

'Online platforms have enabled “deluge of hatred against trans women” in the UK
Social media platforms have policies against discriminatory and hateful content – but LGBTQ+ rights activists say they’re not working.'
by SOPHIE HEMERY

(extract)
Adrian Harrop, an NHS doctor and LGBTQ+ activist, said that frequent, sweeping claims that present trans people as “sexual deviants and predatory criminals” appear to be “radicalising” others against trans rights online.

“I didn’t know where the next punch was going to come from and in the end I had a nervous breakdown”, said Sarah Brown, a former Cambridge city councillor, describing “psychologically exhausting and intimidating” abuse.

Brown said there’s been a “deluge of hatred against trans women” in the UK over the last year amid potential reforms to the Gender Recognition Act, which would make it easier for trans people to change their legal gender.

“The change in public acceptability of transphobia has moved radically within the last six months”, added Ms X, a feminist who requested anonymity amid fears of such abuse and to protect the identity of her trans child." (continues)

"Mumsnet is “the paramount example in the online community of a breeding ground for overt transphobia”, according to [Dr Adrian] Harrop.

Earlier this year, one Mumsnet user said there’s been an almost 12-fold increase since 2016 in the number of people entering the site through the ‘feminist chat’ forum, which is dominated by anti-trans messages.

Recently, some of its users posted about campaigning to stop the BBC Children in Need fundraising programme from supporting trans children.

“The way [Mumsnet users] highlight specific individuals and target them for abuse on other social media platforms and in real life is utterly disgraceful”, added Harrop, who says he has faced this personally.

He described threads where “hundreds of Mumsnet users” seem to “congratulate and cheer each other on” while uncovering and publishing personal details including his home address and workplace.

“This all happens under the watch of the moderators of Mumsnet”, Harrop said, pointing to a former local Labour party women’s officer and LGBTQ+ rights activist Lily Madigan as likely “the biggest victim”.

Frequent posts, he said, “make horrendous personal comments about her appearance and style of dress… essentially sexually objectifying her”.

Unlike other platforms, Mumsnet has a specific moderation policy on trans rights, which it introduced in June.

It says the website hosts “intelligent and different opinions” and “civilised discussion”, and doesn’t want to feel “inherently hostile to any group”, including ‘gender-critical feminists’ that oppose trans rights reforms.

In a statement, Mumsnet’s CEO Justine Roberts explained that its moderators are “likely to delete misgendering, the term ‘trans-identified male’”, and “sweeping negative generalisations about trans people”.

These platforms must accept that they are “accountable,” she said, “for the individuals who are currently using their platform to mobilise activity to the obvious detriment of a vulnerable minority”.

But it doesn’t have “hard and fast rules” or “a definitive list of banned terms”. It’s also possible to be “banned elsewhere but… [not] on Mumsnet”, Roberts said, as “we can only moderate on our own site, to our own guidelines”.

For Ms X, the mother of a trans child, this is not good enough. She said Mumsnet and other online platforms are shirking their responsibilities.

These platforms must accept that they are “accountable,” she said, “for the individuals who are currently using their platform to mobilise activity to the obvious detriment of a vulnerable minority”.

[Sarah] Brown, the former Cambridge city councillor, added that social media companies need to urgently train moderators on trans rights.

“You have to actually engage with trans communities, find out what our concerns are, why we’re unable to speak, why we’re being driven off these platforms”, she told me. “At the moment we’re being ignored”.

politicalcritique.org/world/uk/2018/online-platforms-against-trans-women/

I wonder which ones Eve is referring to?

Spectator article?

There's this one too. I expect it was one or both of them that Eve meant.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting#amp

check: Emma Healey, Penis Beaker, Biscuits

Exactly! This is the one I got it confused with. Bonus Joss Prior is the main difference.

Yes, I really admire Glosswitch's writing.
Its a great article.
I'm sure that Eve must have meant that one.

Hellooo! I heard there’s a hotbed? I haven’t logged in for a few years, but I used to be on here a lot (as umf) when my children were tiny. Originally came on because this was the place to be to discuss some arse of a male midwife who had announced that birth without pain relief was a really big achievement for some women especially those who hadn’t achieved much else in life.

And since then have read on and off when being a mother who ‘at least sometimes works outside the home’ (as Eve puts it) has left me the chance. And, err, come back for Boden codes because yes middle class.

Have often read the feminism boards but not bothered to log in because 1) would have to tap several times to retrieve password; 2) didn’t feel had much to add to the intelligent and witty discussion.

But now I’ve flirted with Twitter a bit and found it an unsatisfactory format for in-depth discussion. And they keep banning feminists so blah to that.

And then I heard that mn not only has intelligent and witty discussion of issues affecting women, but also an actual hotbed. So I’m back for that, please, and I will bring pillows and make cocoa and I have some lovely new cotton pjs to wear. Unless this is the kind of hotbed which will get our tomatoes ripening early in which case I’ll go with gardening gloves.

In either case, feel I should say hello properly and not lurk, unintentionally contributing to the impression that a small number of women care about these issues. I’ve had SO MANY conversations in person or PM in past couple of years with women friends who don’t dare say it in public but can spot misogynistic bollocks when they’re hanging in their faces.

Seriously I thought that article was going to be satire when I saw the headline and the claim that mumsnetters were using recipes to be mean to trans activists. But have read carefully and it’s definitely a serious piece. By a young woman who has not yet realized that being a feminist means sometimes not being very pleasing to the men around her.

Late to the party today but can I just say sackrifice that boozy damson flapjacks sound beyond lush...

...as an aside I'm experimenting with creating my own bitter almond essence using noyaux which are the kernals inside the stones of plums, apricots, peaches etc. Hammers or a nut cracker at the ready to break the stones and shove them in some vodka for a time.
After two weeks it already smells amazing.

Interesting also that the noyaux contain a tiny amount of cyanide..

www.thekitchn.com/yes-or-noyaux-using-stone-fruit-kernels-in-the-kitchen-192153

Ok derail over - as you were!

I can't believe no-one has said NOBODY EXPECTS THE TRANISH INQUISITION.

priorities...

I've been musing all day on the notion that

Not wanting penises in women's spaces = toxic hotbed of transphobia.

Eve

Come over here. We got the best recipes 😎😎

Yes, she needs to pay attention when the trolling starts!

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that not giving in to every whim and demand of the overlords = transphobia in the genderists' minds.

This is why I no longer give a flying fuck through a rolling donut about the accusations they fart out on a tiresomely regular basis.

Interesting also that the noyaux contain a tiny amount of cyanide..

I seem to remember this as a plot point in an Agatha Christie short story that also refers to this incident in Taylor's Medical Jurisprudence :

books.google.co.uk/books?id=D1q-CgAAQBAJ&pg=PR19&lpg=PR19&dq=murder+mystery+apricot+liqueur+%22noyaux%22&source=bl&ots=wE6U174O4o&sig=zgAV_NJuqE3VaoVZYhoRWJ_EUxQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJid69g47fAhUyrXEKHS1iC8MQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=murder%20mystery%20apricot%20liqueur%20%22noyaux%22&f=false

As for the article under discussion - as always, it comes down to what is interpreted as transphobia. But, I do think that Eve might want to pay close attention to this thought-provoking piece that describes research into individual and collective narcissism:

Research from my PrejudiceLab at Goldsmiths, University of London shows that people who score high on the collective narcissism scale are particularly sensitive to even the smallest offences to their group’s image. As opposed to individuals with narcissistic personality, who maintain inflated views of themselves, collective narcissists exaggerate offences to their group’s image, and respond to them aggressively. Collective narcissists believe that their group’s importance and worth are not sufficiently recognised by others. They feel that their group merits special treatment, and insist that it gets the recognition and respect it deserves. In other words, collective narcissism amounts to a belief in the exaggerated greatness of one’s group, and demands external validation.

bigthink.com/aeon-ideas/why-collective-narcissists-are-so-politically-volatile

Welcome back, iguanadonna.

Allies should be wary of….who they might be speaking over when they choose to talk

Seriously. Can anyone remember any radio or tv broadcast where one of the transwoman regulars being interviewed didn't speak right over and interrupt any woman speaker just like men constantly do? There was an interview lately with Fae where the bloke being interviewed alongside interrupted and talked right over her the exact same way JF talks over women, and JF did full blown catsbum face.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that not giving in to every whim and demand of the overlords = transphobia in the genderists' minds.

Yep.