Misgendering a person...

[GrungeSponge]

So I realise, as I write this, how obvious it is to many here...

If someone is transitioning and you mistakenly mis-gender that person, then you are seen to have committed a terrible faux pas.

But in reality you are right. If the person is male and you see them as male, then really have you done anything wrong? Is that not just how our brains work? Quickly and imperceptibly catagorises everyone as Male or Female and assess the risk based on that?

Really you haven't actually done anything wrong...is it just society wide gaslighting?

I agree - it is.

And what about that bloke in the US (another thread is about him) who was changing gender several times a day? It would be impossible to keep up with him! And that one who won the Businesswoman of the Year award (I think it was) who dressed as a woman sometimes. I'd be fucked if he'd tell me I was misgendering him when I couldn't see into his head to see which gender he fancied being that day.

It's legalised cognitive dissonance.

I have frequently been called "Sir" and do not get my knickers in a knot over it. (As a 6ft 3" female it is not surprising people get confused).

The new dictat is that we forget every piece of science and logic and correct grammar and replace it with "transpeak"

Is that not just how our brains work?

Yes absolutely, and that is why this push to obliterate sex will ultimately fail. The question that is really being fought over is whether sex-based protections for women and safeguarding for children will be destroyed in the process.

What I can't take are the double standards. If he and she refer to gender identity, then we need a public service announcement and another option for radical feminists, non binaries, anyone uncomfortable with identifying with either gender stereotype. It is possible to train oneself to use new terms - there are several words and phrases from my youth that are just not acceptable these days and rightly so.

If he and she refer to sex then misgendering is not a thing because we all have a sex. Pronouns are just a weird feature of our language, sometimes useful sometimes not. Maybe a single pronoun for everybody would be better?

But you can’t reasonably, logically have it both ways (ie current situ) without tripping people up and confusing them. What pronouns should not be about is coercion and control of those less powerful than you.

ICYMI Kinesis' insightful thread on the topic of pronouns and misgendering. Kinesis' mature reflections on what this means for everyday interactions and more widely.

I live in a place that has self-ID, and as a transwoman, I’d just like to say that from my personality it’s a total pain in the ass.

I hate being asked what my pronouns are while going to the bank. Or the grocery line. People are trying to be polite, I know.

But the fact is that if they have to ask they probably already know.

And what bugs me most isn’t that they ask, it’s why they ask. So why do they ask?
...
And so when someone asks me my pronouns they’re trying to be polite, but see, I don’t believe for a second doing it because they respect me or give a rat’s ass about how I feel about my pronouns.

They’re doing it because they’re afraid I’m about to throw a fit.

And that I find far more insulting than being “misgendered”.
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Do we want a world where everyone grovels to visibly trans people like we’re bad-tempered invading soldiers?

If I ever feel disgust at my own transness, it’s moments like those. I don’t want to be associated with the kind of person who has a hundred petty meltdowns a day.
...
In my world, being trans is not a state of victimhood; it’s a state of being, a choice I made for my life and my health and my happiness. I don’t need further validation or justification.

twitter.com/Kinesis/status/1046482847245033472?s=19 [As ever, the whole thread is worth reading.]

Do we want a world where everyone grovels to visibly trans people like we’re bad-tempered invading soldiers?

Seems to me like a lot of trans people and trans allies want exactly that.

Those who don't want it will have to push back a lot harder in order to be seen.

Lelly I'm only 5 foot 2, and I was called mate. The man was embarrassed, I thought it was funny. I mistakenly called a boy a girl last week, his dad laughed, he was not offended.
Maybe this is why TW percieve themselves as the most oppressed people in theworld, because they don't know when someone is not actually offending them, but has simply made a mistake or not

Maybe this is why TW percieve themselves as the most oppressed people in theworld, because they don't know when someone is not actually offending them, but has simply made a mistake or not

It is much easier to laugh at someone calling you a man when you know you are actually a woman.

Best proof there is that transwomen know they aren't women.

They may believe transwomen are women, but belief is, it appears, quite a bit different from knowledge.

hmm...I think the problem is that while there are probably a lot of non-trans people out there who aren't offended when they get misgendered...and a lot of parents of non-trans children who are not offended or in the least bit bothered if their child gets misgendered...a lot of people do see both of these as big big problems.

People who will find it insulting if their baby is seen as male when female or vice versa.

So while society as a whole would see it as on average mildly insulting to be told you look manly when female, or feminine while male, I think trans people have at least some right to also feel offended when mis-gendered.

I personally couldn't give a shit if misgendered...though due to the size of my breasts is pretty unlikely. My DD was misgendered about 50% of the time as a baby/toddler. I never bothered correcting anyone...in fact I thought it was cool that around 50% of strangers she interacted with treated her in male stereotypical ways...complementing her strength and bravery etc.

The only thing that ever pissed me off was strangers asking which she was...I'd always just ask them why they wanted to know....which usually stopped that line of questioning...

There’s a difference between accidentally misgendering and doing it on purpose though isn’t there?

There’s a difference between accidentally misgendering and doing it on purpose though isn’t there?

What do you mean exactly?

Like calling a man a man no matter how he is presenting?

What is the difference between 'misgendering' and 'correctsexing'?

As a female's life can depend on 'correctsexing' - it is imperative that their brains correctly register if a person is a male or female. No matter what clothes they are wearing.

I was talking about an accidental misgendering.

I've been misgendered before I've been thinking about why (tall, short hair, deep laugh) but my reaction to it is entirely fitting of my sexed socialisation: I just shrugged it off and confirmed it was ok. I didn't make a fuss, i appeased the person who had done it.

As for children being misgendered, I do agree that some parents take offence. Could it be that they themselves have a very rigid idea of gender or gender stereotypes, so it is insulting to suggesting their child is different?

I get very embarrassed if I get someone's name wrong after they've told me or if I forget it. So does misgendering (but perhaps correct sexing) play on the anxiety/bad manners side of social interaction?

Also I need to look up Cluster B personality types..

I think accidental misgendering is nobody's fault, not all trans people pass, but once you know someone's preferred pronouns (he or she - they/ze is just wankery) it's only polite to use them. Doesn't mean you accept they have changed sex (impossible), it's just courtesy.

OP, I feel like the following was written for you:

medium.com/@transstyleguide/ive-misgendered-someone-what-do-i-do-a-case-of-cis-curiosity-3-559b368bc9d5

A gem:

"I’ve got a few tricks I will sometimes practice to help me get over that:

1. Repetition. I pull out a picture of the person in question and spend five to ten minutes a day thinking their correct pronouns over and over for that entire period of time. My last romantic interest did this with me when she found herself slipping up a few times at first and it worked really well for her!

How to correct wrongthink 101.

"I think accidental misgendering is nobody's fault, not all trans people pass, but once you know someone's preferred pronouns (he or she - they/ze is just wankery) it's only polite to use them. Doesn't mean you accept they have changed sex (impossible), it's just courtesy."

To me it would be courteous to not force others to call an obvious male "she". But hey, you do you.

It’s gaslighting
Compelled speech
It violates freedom of speech and freedom of expression

It is not benign.

I'm not convinced the whole misgendering debate is based around people accidentally referring to somebody by the wrong sex.

Many of the posts on here seem to suggest that people don't actually want to respect people's pronouns and are just trying to implement a rather weasely excuse - "oh, but it's so hard to get it right."

Why not just be straight up and say you aren't prepared to honour people's chosen pronouns.

Look,
Gender can't be changed you have XX chromosomes or XY they cant be swapped over just because you want to change i think also if you want this you should pay for it as i certainly don't support this but i don't have a problem with someone being themselves just don't force me to call you xi xen. (these are pronouns)

"Why not just be straight up and say you aren't prepared to honour people's chosen pronouns."

I am not prepared to deny reality.

But if it isn't Mr. "Why should I be a feminist". Interesting that you are still on here.

Scott I was talking about the first initial encounter. I'm serving someone in a shop say, and call them Sir instead of Madame. I don't think I would be announcing to that person I wasn't prepared to use their preferred pronouns.