Misgendering a person...

[GrungeSponge]

So I realise, as I write this, how obvious it is to many here...

If someone is transitioning and you mistakenly mis-gender that person, then you are seen to have committed a terrible faux pas.

But in reality you are right. If the person is male and you see them as male, then really have you done anything wrong? Is that not just how our brains work? Quickly and imperceptibly catagorises everyone as Male or Female and assess the risk based on that?

Really you haven't actually done anything wrong...is it just society wide gaslighting?

you can’t tell someone’s self identified gender from their name or how they look

I don't have a 'self identified gender'. What pronouns do I use then..?

I don't have a 'self identified gender'. What pronouns do I use then..?

I use whatever pronouns other people want to use for me. Which interestingly, is always female pronouns, go figure.

However, if I ever enter a genderist space again, I will do some hard thinking beforehand on what sort of pronouns I will demand.

I don't like the word. The very idea of 'misgendering' presupposes that everyone has a gender. I don't have one. Pronouns relate to sex. It's rare that someone mistakes me for being the opposite sex, but I'm certainly not offended if they do.

I use factual, correct-sex pronouns. If I'm aware that someone is distressed by their correct-sex pronouns, and I want to be kind to that person, I'll avoid using pronouns for them altogether. If that person is calling me names, threatening me, or behaving in a misogynistic fashion? I'm not inclined to be kind.

Either way, I will not be compelled to call a man 'she'. Ever.

I consider informing a fanfic author that their protagonist just assumes the genders of most people he meets.

This stuff is rife in fandom. I know one person who insists on always mentioning that her RPG characters are 'cis' - she isn't trans and doesn't play any trans characters. Nobody else in the community does it. It comes across as really pointless virtue-signalling.

I've just looked at that link. Where someone is actually asking how they repent for having used the correct-sex pronouns for someone who doesn't like them.

Fascinating, considering how much like a religious belief system the trans ideology is.

However, if I ever enter a genderist space again, I will do some hard thinking beforehand on what sort of pronouns I will demand.

He he, good idea.

Logically only a genderist can misgender a person, since everyone else thinks pronouns refer to sex. And the people the genderists misgender the most are probably the people they consider to be "cis" but who are actually gender critical and therefore don't believe that they have a gender identity.

Hmmm. So by this logic non genderists can call me "she" but genderists will have to call me "they" or "it" or something.... Now how do I explain that in my email sign off?

The interesting thing about 'preferred/compelled pronouns' is that its very unusual to use pronouns when speaking with someone about them.

The consequence is more likely that you validate their gender identity / obscure their sex when speaking with others.

I was aware of how difficult this was a couple of years ago for incredibly well-meaning kind friends who were discussing someone who I knew only in passing as a friend's husband & who had since we met started identifying as a woman.

As the conversation was largely based on things that had happened in the past & the point of connection was the woman (who had died) rather than her husband, it was clearly difficult for them to know how best to speak.

I remember thinking at the time that whether we used he/him or she/her did not in anyway negate the obvious respect and care felt for our mutual friend's husband.

My pronouns are "me, mine and my"

Logically only a genderist can misgender a person, since everyone else thinks pronouns refer to sex.

Very true.

Is there a language with multiple grammatical cases for pronouns we could appropriate?

I was wondering if Latin fit the bill? I could identify as Roman and throw a wobbler when people fail to get it spot on?

We should construct our very own language where pronouns differ depending on what the moon cycle is, whether the person is in the room or isn't in the room, where she stands, et cetera.

It's been ages since I had Latin in school, but I don't think it is quite complicated enough.

You have to be religious to accept that blasphemy is a sin.

Brilliantly put Aspie. And I happily tolerate a lot of religious people (of different faiths) in my day to day life. But none of them force me to say phrases relating to their religion! And their religions sometimes contradict each other and they get along fine too! It's why I love living in a city.

And I happily tolerate a lot of religious people (of different faiths) in my day to day life. But none of them force me to say phrases relating to their religion! And their religions sometimes contradict each other and they get along fine too!

I'm also surrounded by religious people in my day to day life. Due to my job, I do say the phrases and join in the collective worship. But the difference is, I'm not required to nor expected to believe it and, if I didn't join in with it, I'd be regarded as having my own personal reasons for not doing so (e.g. they conflicted with my own beliefs) and so nothing would happen as a result. Because it's understood that I have a right to my beliefs too.

There's interesting precedent for resisting pronouns.
See the Quakers & Plain speech:
homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6362Yaswen2.htm

There's interesting precedent for resisting pronouns.

Puts me in mind of Mussolini and the attempts to change pronoun usage. Il Duce deprecated the formal lei and mandated usage of the informal, allegedly more comradely and inclusive voi for ideological purposes.

One of these reforms was the substitution of the word ‘voi’ for ‘lei’. Now for those of you who don’t know Italian ‘lei’ is the formal version of you whereas ‘voi’ is informal and perhaps a bit more comradely. Mussolini believed this would ensure that the Italian people would become more ‘macho’ and militaristic...Under his rule ‘voi’ had to be used in most public buildings such as schools.
But, how much impact did this actually have? The answer is, not a lot. Mussolini had gone a step too far, he was trying to bend the Italian’s language to his will....After Mussolini fell from power the Italians quickly returned to using the traditional ‘lei’. Why didn’t Mussolini’s reform stick? Perhaps when you try to change language it simply doesn’t work.

linguaphilesunited.wordpress.com/2016/07/04/did-mussolini-make-an-impact-on-the-italian-language/

I think what the Quakers did is pretty much what we are doing: Refusing to cater to other people's delusions.
In their case, it was their contemporary's delusions of some people being better than other people, in our case it is delusions of being the other sex. (Though genderism also has a lot to do with males and TiFs thinking themselves above women)

Well that stonewall allies training must be good because despite it being quite pricey they gave my massive organisation (that could easily pay for it) it for free and didn’t manage to fill the handful of free places. There are over 6000 of us!!

If you want a laugh have a good at the agenda including ‘an insight into what it means to be yourself’! Hilarious! Over £300+VAT

www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/get-involved-ind-and-comm/allies-programme