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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Misgendering a person...

69 replies

GrungeSponge · 05/12/2018 14:29

So I realise, as I write this, how obvious it is to many here...

If someone is transitioning and you mistakenly mis-gender that person, then you are seen to have committed a terrible faux pas.

But in reality you are right. If the person is male and you see them as male, then really have you done anything wrong? Is that not just how our brains work? Quickly and imperceptibly catagorises everyone as Male or Female and assess the risk based on that?

Really you haven't actually done anything wrong...is it just society wide gaslighting?

OP posts:
TwistedChristmas · 05/12/2018 20:58

I'd be tempted to tell someone that I identify as a member of the royal family and they must address me as HRH.

Imagine if there was a Their Royal Highness with a gender neutral name and looks and blue hair in the history books in a hundred years time. Could make history lessons very interesting.

It's hard to imagine to royal family tolerating that kind of nonsense.

I don't misgender, I correctly sex. It's had me deleted a few times, and banned from posting.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 21:14

But outside of the trans debate it's a fairly common part of life to temper your language to stay within the realms of what is deemed socially acceptable.

If I wanted to be a dick, I could argue against referring to women as equals as the demonstrable evidence suggests that men for whatever reasons have accomplished much more throughout history in terms of business/infrastructure/science/etc.

The world could definitely change to the benefit of women, but it's hard to argue that the quality of human life has improved immeasurably over the past few centuries and that this has largely been the work of men.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 21:16

The above isn't my opinion, but it's one that could reasonably be argued.

TwistedChristmas · 05/12/2018 21:20

@ScottCheggJnr why the sudden interest in feminist issues when your own thread was asking why you should be supporting us? (Or however you phrased it).

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 21:23

It's not a sudden interest. I had to read feminist theory as part of my degree over 15 years ago - elective module called 'Modern Literary Theory' which covered Marxism, Communism, Feminism, etc. Several of my classmates were from other humanities subjects including Gender Studies.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 21:25

As I attempted to explain, I wasn't literally asking why I should support feminism. I was trying to examine why it isn't seemingly a two way street.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 21:25

Yeah, if you are a misogynist who doesn't think he should support feminism if feminism doesn't benefit him, why are you even still here?

Just leave. There's plenty of spaces where antifeminist men are welcome.

ScottCheggJnr · 05/12/2018 21:29

Not my belief. It's not about whether feminism benefits me, it's about the logic of supporting the interests of a movement which isn't interested in supporting the interests of your demographic.

The 'men who don't support feminism are misogynists....but screw men's problems, they're not for us to solve' type of sentiment is what I'm talking about.

indieshuffle · 05/12/2018 21:50

I agree that there is an insidious dominance to pronouns now.

But it isn't even as simple as correctly sexing someone in an instant, nor deliberately misgendering a transperson.

It is also that I have grown up seeing gender non-conforming people, dressing androgonously for example, (and having grown up around goth and punk etc) and in that instance I see a person who is in fact breaking down gender stereotypes not neccessarily someone who is transgender. This would not change their pronouns obviously and we should not be scared into thinking that every GNC person is trans, and get back in our gender boxes because of the bad-tempered invading soldiers. That is incredibly regressive and has us walking on eggshells.

indieshuffle · 05/12/2018 21:56

I am prepared to consider changing pronouns, especially if their is mental illhealth involved, but actually as I write this I realise that if it is not a mental health courtesy/necessity because being trans is not considered by some to be a MH disorder then I do not want to be compelled in which pronouns to use. The trans umbrella is so wide that the only way I can keep any integrity of speech and my own independence of mind (and not be coercively controlled MNHQ) is to use my discretion for each person.

So to me, demedicalising being trans is simply making me feel compelled and making me pick a side where I have to take a stand against being forced. Which is yet more cognitive dissonance because I do consider it a MH issue, yet the TRA stance is so forcefully polarising.

Once again , what transpeople gained out of sympathy and empathy for a distressing mental health condition is being lost since we are being told it is in fact a belief system or an as yet invisible and unprovable physical 'fact' that clashes with all known other facts, except mental health explanations, but yet we must comply.

MrGHardy · 05/12/2018 22:05

"If I wanted to be a dick"

Wanted?

"Not my belief."

You think anyone here believes that?

I will leave it at one point - you're on a feminist board where women's issues are being discussed. And yet you whine about "but screw men's problems, they're not for us to solve". Yes, funnily enough on a board where women's issues are to be discussed, a completely unoriginal man bringing MRA 101 "what about us menz" isn't met with "oooooh yes, sweetie, what can we do to make you happy today". Bye now.

UnderMajorDomoMinor · 05/12/2018 22:06

Some people in the large organisation I work for have just been on Stonewall’s allies training. This has resulted in women (not trans/non-binary/etc) putting their preferred pronouns in their email signature with a little asterisk saying ‘you can’t tell someone’s self identified gender from their name or how they look’

Ummm 99.7% of the time you can. And you definitely can for you as you’re not trans (etc)

Interestingly no men have done this.

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 22:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ChewyLouie · 05/12/2018 22:19

UnderMajor, I’m just musing why women in your organisation are the ones to needlessly use pronouns is it socialisation to be nice or does unequal pay/ career breaks make us feel less secure in the workplace so more likely to toe the party line? Are these the younger women/ one particular department?

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 22:27

‘you can’t tell someone’s self identified gender from their name or how they look’

If they admit we can't tell their self identified gender from how they look, then why do they throw tantrums when we get it wrong?

Nobody, not even the most holier-than-though transactivists go through life asking literally everyone they meet for preferred pronouns. Perhaps they ask when they talk to someone (though I can't imagine they really do it for normal people, it would be exhausting), but even so, they are still committing the thoughtcrime of thinking in their heads about people as women or men when they don't know how those people identify.

UnderMajorDomoMinor · 05/12/2018 22:48

Personally I think it preys on a) female socialization and niceness and b) being the most right on.

I have so far come across 2 non-binary signature blocks.

UnderMajorDomoMinor · 05/12/2018 22:50

The people who I know who have done it are the sort of people who worry a lot about what people think of them. They are mid 30s to early 40s in age range so not the archetypal young person.

indieshuffle · 05/12/2018 22:55

Exactly HestiaParthenos. Nobody, not even the most holier-than-though transactivists go through life asking literally everyone they meet for preferred pronouns. They will assume and judge based on sex or what clothes people wear. Its so hypocritical and controlling.

indieshuffle · 05/12/2018 22:56

Sorry bolding fail on your quote hestia Nobody, not even the most holier-than-though transactivists go through life asking literally everyone they meet for preferred pronouns.

BudgieMustTryHarder · 05/12/2018 22:57

So they are transyoung or middle aged

ChewyLouie · 05/12/2018 23:01

UnderMajor, they need to read the feminist board on here 😁

MrGHardy · 05/12/2018 23:15

"Nobody, not even the most holier-than-though transactivists go through life asking literally everyone they meet for preferred pronouns."

2nd time I am posting this but...there are. Enjoy:

medium.com/@transstyleguide/ive-misgendered-someone-what-do-i-do-a-case-of-cis-curiosity-3-559b368bc9d5

HestiaParthenos · 05/12/2018 23:24

That's a very long text, I somehow suspect there'll be "beat your chest with your fists, throw dirt on your head and scream the correct pronouns out into the desert" somewhere in there.

I consider informing a fanfic author that their protagonist just assumes the genders of most people he meets. (I know this author is aware of the importance of gender identity because they used they/them pronouns for a random cashier, so I think my input will be welcomed.)

What solution should I suggest,though? Should the narrative, told from the protagonist's point of view, just use "they" pronouns for everyone the protagonist hasn't yet asked about their pronouns, or perhaps think "he, she or they" every time?

ScottCheggJnr · 06/12/2018 07:57

And yet you whine about "but screw men's problems, they're not for us to solve".

But that wasn't really my point was it?

I was talking about how feminists demand everybody listen to them but aren't interested in the other side of the coin.

ScottCheggJnr · 06/12/2018 08:01

I don't actually support self ID, but the thought of people like you having to sit in a work meeting and be pompously lectured at by a Stonewall representative is something I find a little hilarious.