Nic Williams on Woman's Hour (Tuesday) talking about sport and gender identity

[OrchidInTheSun]

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1069731404488077318?s=21

Nic Williams will be debating with Beth Jones, who is an academic at Nottingham Trent www.ntu.ac.uk/staff-profiles/social-sciences/dr-beth-jones

twitter.com/msmerrythought/status/1070265258097471488?s=21

Trans man competing with the men. Coming in around 16th.

“I know I made the right decision. But I think sometimes I’m like ‘Oh, I really wish I could compete as a girl. Because I want to win that race.’ It’s fun to win, and it’s something that I worked really hard for.

Keep tweeting Alex.

Agree, Alex is gold.

I've never seen this very clear still shot of Fallon Fox and Tamikka Brents' fight before:

this punch left Tamikka Brents with a concussion, broken orbital and 7 staples in her head...But, hey, it was fair, after all, actual physical reality has no place in sport. Come on, men, lots of medals to be won in women's events.

twitter.com/JeanCross3/status/1052677673669935104

The case of Schuyler raises some interesting points.
He enjoys competing with the men whilst knowing it is not realistic to expect to win. The men's ream have been very welcoming. (A cynic might say why not? It's not like he's beating them).
It seems the move to the men's team was made for reasons of preference rather than the fact that he now takes testosterone which may have given an unfair advantage against the women.
Also I'm interested about the issue of the sports scholarship - Presumably these are given out in the expectation of recruiting a winning team. So when a star athlete changes to the men's team, effectively renouncing they're chance of winning, well, it's nice he's been supported to do as he feels he must do but the women's team is one down.
Many academic scholarships (at school anyway) are conditional on continuing good performance and may be rescinded if the student stops working and doesn't maintain the grades.

arranbubonicplague

Thanks for that. Fascinating.

The use of testosterone as a performance enhancing drug in sport is well established. So too the side-effects of steroid abuse.

NHS website:
'Anabolic steroid misuse
Anabolic steroids are prescription-only medicines that are sometimes taken without medical advice to increase muscle mass and improve athletic performance.

If used in this way, they can cause serious side effects and addiction.

Anabolic steroids are manufactured drugs that mimic the effects of the male hormone testosterone. They have limited medical uses and aren't to be confused with corticosteroids, a different type of steroid drug that's commonly prescribed for a variety of conditions.

This page explains the dangers of misusing anabolic steroids, and aims to advise and support those who are addicted to the drugs.

Are anabolic steroids illegal?
Anabolic steroids are class C drugs, which can only be sold by pharmacists with a prescription.

It's legal to have anabolic steroids for personal use. They can also be imported or exported, as long as this is carried out in person. This means they can't be posted or delivered by a courier or freight service.

However, it's illegal to possess, import or export anabolic steroids if it's believed you're supplying or selling them. This includes giving them to friends. The penalty is an unlimited fine, or even a prison sentence of up to 14 years.

In professional sport, most organisations ban anabolic steroid use and test competitors for banned steroids.

Why people misuse anabolic steroids
Anabolic steroids can be used as performance-enhancing drugs that increase muscle mass and decrease fat, as well as causing many undesirable effects. Some athletes, weightlifters and bodybuilders take them regularly to improve their physical performance and build up their bodies.

However, people of all ages have been known to misuse these drugs, including adolescent boys who suffer from body dysmorphic disorder. This is a mental health condition where a person spends a lot of time worrying about flaws in their appearance. These flaws are often unnoticeable to others.

Boys and men who have body dysmorphic disorder may take anabolic steroids because they don't see themselves as being physically big enough or strong enough.

Some people believe taking anabolic steroids will help them become fit and healthy. This isn't true: taking anabolic steroids is a dangerous drug habit.

How anabolic steroids are taken
Anabolic steroids are usually injected into the muscle or taken by mouth as tablets, but they also come as creams or gels that are applied to the skin.

Many people who use anabolic steroids are aware of the dangers of taking them, and believe that by taking the drugs in certain ways they can avoid side effects.

Users might:

Take the drugs for a period of time and then stop for a rest period before starting again. This is known as "cycling".
Taking more than 1 type of anabolic steroid at a time, known as "stacking" – which they believe makes them work better.
Do a combination of both stacking and cycling known as "pyramiding" – where they start off taking a low dose of 1 or more anabolic steroids, and then increase the dose over time up to a maximum dose. They then stop taking them for a rest period to give the body a break before starting the cycle again.
But there is no evidence that any of these methods actually reduce side effects from taking anabolic steroids.

Users tend to exercise more when they're taking high doses to make the most of their improved performance during this time.

Side effects of anabolic steroids
Regularly taking anabolic steroids can lead to physical and psychological changes in both men and women, as well as potentially dangerous medical conditions.

Physical effects
Effects of anabolic steroids in men can include:

reduced sperm count
infertility
shrunken testicles
erectile dysfunction
baldness
breast development
increased risk of prostate cancer
severe acne
stomach pain
In women, anabolic steroids can cause:

facial hair growth and body hair
loss of breasts
swelling of the clitoris
a deepened voice
an increased sex drive
problems with periods
hair loss
severe acne
In addition, both men and women who take anabolic steroids can develop any of the following medical conditions:

heart attack or stroke
liver or kidney problems or failure
high blood pressure (hypertension)
blood clots
fluid retention
high cholesterol

Psychological effects
Misusing anabolic steroids can also cause the following psychological or emotional effects:

aggressive behaviour
mood swings
paranoia
manic behaviour
hallucinations and delusions
Stunted growth in adolescents
Anabolic steroids accelerate bone growth, so if they're misused by adolescents who haven't yet had the growth spurt associated with puberty, the drugs can cause premature ageing of the bones and restricted growth.

Addiction
Like many other substances, anabolic steroids are addictive. This means you can crave the drug, require more to get the same effect, and have withdrawal symptoms if you suddenly stop taking them.

A person who is addicted to anabolic steroids will want to keep using them despite experiencing unpleasant physical side effects.

When doctors prescribe steroid medication, they always advise coming off the medication slowly by gradually reducing the dose. Coming off anabolic steroids suddenly can result in withdrawal symptoms that include:

depression and apathy
feelings of anxiety
difficulty concentrating
insomnia
anorexia
decreased sex drive
extreme tiredness (fatigue)
headaches
muscle and joint pain'
www.nhs.uk/conditions/anabolic-steroid-misuse/

from Pencil's excellent transcript

BJ: I'm not sure that there is any scientific evidence that shows that, you know, oestrogen or testosterone has an impact in transgender people on their athletic performance. You know, certainly women report that once they've been on oestrogen therapy they feel weaker, they run slower than perhaps they did before, but there's no kind of robust scientific evidence to say that either testosterone or oestrogen impacts directly on athletic performance.

The effects on any person competing in sports who is taking testosterone are well-established.

THe side-effects of any male taking testosterone blocking medication are also well-known.

So too many other medical/surgical interventions.
If an individual male due to illness / injury has surgical /medical interventions their capacity to train, strength, stamina and or speed etc may well be affected.
The reduction in competative advantage is therefore only relative to their sporting performance before the intervention.

Very interesting Rowan Thank you.

Thanks arranbubonicplague! That is interesting.

@arranbubonicplague,

Thanks for that link, the Twitter comments were interesting, particularly the misunderstood one (from another doctor) which alleged that it simply backed up what the crazy psychologist said on Women's Hour yesterday about Testosterone.
There are so many other factors involved to explain the difference in male/female athletic performance.
I competed with very low Testosterone levels in various sports, but that didn't stop me winning or running marathons, although it may explain why I was always a very passive, laid back non violent person.
Testosterone is of course an Anabolic Steroid.

Here is a really weird example of an 18 year old US wrestler who is transitioning to be a male, and even though they are taking Testosterone supplements (something which NONE of the other girls are allowed to do), they are still competing against the girls - with obvious results.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

From the link about Lauren Jeska.

"Then came a crucial meeting with a UKA official in June 2015, when Jeska was told that her past results were at risk of being erased from the record books if she didn’t submit to the blood tests, Birmingham crown court heard this week. She later told her friends that she felt traumatised by the meeting and suffered flashbacks which she self-diagnosed as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (a diagnosis not made by any of the four psychiatrists who examined her when she was in jail on remand, though some did suggest she was on the autistic spectrum)."

Interesting language choice in that article ("If she didn’t submit to the blood tests" for example).

Obviously we don't know if Jeska was taking anabolic steroids but clearly Jeska did not want to take a blood test. But a few of the side-effects (aggressive behaviour, mood swings, paranoia, manic behaviour, hallucinations and delusions) look like they may have been factors. Jeska stated that UKA were trying to kill Jeska which is obviously untrue.

Jeska's background does seem to have a lot of the markers of male-bodied transgender people that we are seeing at the moment:

• Attended boys' only school
• Religious parents who have fixed ideas of the roles of both sexes
• Suspected autism
• Studied at Leeds
• Rage (violent rage in Jeska's case) at not being considered a real woman

Yup andyoldlabour, this what happens.

Trans person that says they’re a woman, fights females. Trans person that receives testosterone (that women are banned for taking) because they say they’re a man, fights females.

Women are what men say they are.

Mack Beggs wants to compete against boys. Whether for validation reasons or out of a sense of fairness as he takes testosterone.
33:0 unbeaten record.
A few girls (2 last year, 1 this year) refusing to fight him for fear of injury.
The testosterone does not appear to be being addressed. Nor did it appear to have been an issue with Schylar, the swimmer who is now in the boys team.
I do have sympathy trans men. I don't know how to argue one rule for trans men and another for trans women but that's what seems to be fair to me.

I don't feel sympathy for people who are doping in such a way they are excluded from fair competition.

They are adults and need to choose their priorities and take responsibility for their choices.

Mack Beggs wants to compete against boys. Whether for validation reasons or out of a sense of fairness as he takes testosterone.

There are many people, of both sexes, who take part in sporting activities but do not/cannot compete because for whatever reasons they are taking medication (prescribed and not) which is prohibited due to the fact it is known to have unfair performance-enhancing medication.

It certainly makes a mockery of long established anti doping/drug testing rules.
If only all those Russian/East German athletes who were disqualified would claim they were trans maybe they could get their medals reinstated.

If you're taking drugs that limit or enhance your performance, and therefor slot you into a different category, you shouldn't be competing.

A transman on testosterone should not be competing against men. Irrespective of whether or not he still losing, due to his physiology. If he can take testosterone, why can't everyone else?

Likewise, the advantage it gives him over women excludes him.

A transwomen who has taken drugs to reduce their advantage, should not be competing against women, ever.

I don't even think they should be competing against men if they are on drugs. But that's up to men to sort out.

A female bodied transman would be taking a physiological dose of testosterone Ie what would bring her in the range of a person who was born a man.

An athlete taking testosterone or other anabolic steroids for performance enhancement would be using a dose which is approximately 5 to 10 times (or more) higher that of the normal physiological testosterone levels in doing so he would shut down his own testosterone production temporarily

An athlete might also be using growth hormone endurance athletes would be using EPO and probably lots of other things

A female bodied transman would be taking a physiological dose of testosterone Ie what would bring her in the range of a person who was born a man.

There is a significant difference between naturally produced hormones and administered artificial ones on all humans.
It is reasonable to recognise that those which are 'cross-sex' will be likely to have additional side-effects to those intended to replicate the sex-specific naturally produced ones (eg H R T)

It's absurd that taking testosterone doesn't exclude a person from competition just because they're transitioning. My brother had to give up competing for GB because his asthma worsened and he had to choose between taking the drugs that actually worked or competing and risking his health. Medical exemptions get you so far, but there's a line to be drawn when treatment becomes enhancement.

To Rowan's point - the physiological dose of T that brings a woman into the man's range, 8nmol - 38nmol takes her far outside the woman's range 0.2 - 2.3ml.

The genetics professor who was instrumental in introducing the transgender policy to the NCAA:

Vilain told me that the NCAA’s rules were also aimed at inclusivity and that the governing body aims to give everyone the chance to compete. Creating rules around transgender participation, he admitted, was extremely challenging. He said that the entire concept of anatomical equality for transgender athletes was simply not feasible, and thus, it was not a stated goal of the NCAA’s rules.

“It is not about making everybody biologically equal, and I think that is a common misconception when we start talking about transgender athletes,” he said. “People want transgender [females] to be physiologically identical to [born] females, and if they’re not, it’s unfair. That is not possible.”

Also (in the context of intersex conditions):

Vilain, the UCLA geneticist, sees what he calls a "schizophrenic" conflict between the Chand ruling and the IOC guidelines on transgender female—not intersex—athletes, which was rewritten in November to allow an athlete to participate in competition as a female if her testosterone is below 10 nanomoles per liter, same as the old IAAF standard. "The guidelines are very favorable for transgender athletes, and a great advancement," says Vilain. "But the same rule was struck down for intersex athletes. It's illogical."

If only more people were honest that it's not about fairness, but inclusion. Then a discussion could be had over whether that was reasonable or not. But instead we have the gaslighting and arguments over testosterone levels to try and prove that trans women don't have an advantage.

*nmol in that final one...