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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Why should men support feminism?

292 replies

ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 14:33

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

This is a genuine question.

OP posts:
Elfinablender · 02/12/2018 14:43

Knock yourself out. If you want to tackle toxic masculinity which results in suicide, murder and assault then good for you. What do you intend to do?

Almondcandle · 02/12/2018 14:46

Most people support causes that are about groups other than their own.

MagicMix · 02/12/2018 14:57

There is very little reason for men who don't give a shit about women to support feminism.

SarahCarer · 02/12/2018 15:02

ScottCheggJnr There is a crisis of toxic masculinity which is bad for both men and women. I would definitely recommend you focus on that. You may inadvertently be helping women in the process but try not to worry about that too much.

Keepithidden · 02/12/2018 15:02

It's a moral stance surely? The desire to treat everyone as you would wish to be treated. Can't see why I wouldn't support that even with a detrimental impact on my own class.

UpstartCrow · 02/12/2018 15:05

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

Yes. Why would that surprise you? Do you castigate prostate or penile cancer support groups for not tackling the terrible issue of ovarian cancer?

GraceTheDisgrace · 02/12/2018 15:14

My husband has pro-feminist views. I didn't convince or persuade him. Women being people; and the injustice of oppression; are things you either 'get' on an instinctive level, or you don't. It's not about what feminism can do 'for men'. The entire point is that it's not about that. I think it's really strange for a man to want feminists to persuade him to support us. Our movement doesn't benefit from the involvement of the sort of men who don't understand why women should be liberated from sex-based oppression.

The problem I've seen with men's issues like "men's suicide rate" is that the vast majority of men simply cannot be arsed to do anything to help each other out.

Gentlygently · 02/12/2018 15:22

Because you may have a daughter? Or a granddaughter? And because to make things anywhere near equal for them, you need to start now.

whatsthecomingoverthehill · 02/12/2018 15:24

...if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

The things where men are better off result in a worse situation for women (e.g. the pay gap). But the areas that women better do not have a negative result on men - women having a lower suicide rate does not result in a higher rate for men.

Galvantula · 02/12/2018 15:26
Biscuit
AssassinatedBeauty · 02/12/2018 15:27

Of course it's straight forward if you think women are people, as valid and worthwhile as men.

Winebottle · 02/12/2018 15:42

What would you do to support it though? If you aren't fighting equality, that is good enough. I think it is for women to decide what equality looks like and be leading the charge on it and if when go along with it, that is all we need.

The difference between issues that affect men and women is where the power lies. Women didn't create a society in which men are more likely to commit suicide, men did.

By all means look at ways to reduce suicide and what can be learned from women having lower rates but it isn't a gender issue in the same way as the pay gap is, for example. High male suicide rates is not a symptom of women's power in society and they, therefore, have no reason to resist attempts to change it.

"We get paid more but you have fewer deaths at work" and similar arguments are childish. Other than a few misguided anti-feminists, I don't think men really care about the areas they fare worse because they don't see it as an injustice.

Arguing who has it worse is missing the point. It a question of whether you want a less gendered society or not.

WaxOnFeckOff · 02/12/2018 15:49

Because society as a whole benefits when women are educated, motivated and successful. Women are more involved in child raising so are more involved in setting the aspirations for children. I'm perfectly happy to support issues where there is inequality for men, I have sons but even if I didn't, equal opportunity for everyone is the desirable state is it not?

MrsTerryPratcett · 02/12/2018 16:24

why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

Well no, not really. In my area, I work in homelessness. Almost all the workers are female. Men's trauma services, almost all women. Mental health, health, refuges, immigrant services, children's, youth, housing... all staffed by women. There are a few men working there. Can you guess which roles they seem to acquire with startling speed?

So by all means work in MH and addictions. Just try to do the grass roots, face to face work. Don't immediately move into management. Otherwise you won't be focusing on the important areas for men.

9toenails · 02/12/2018 16:29

Why should men support feminism?

Two reasons at least (there may be more):

  1. The world would be a better place if women had a fair share in running things. 
      ---   And, more importantly,
  1. It is the right thing to do. (Yes, a simple ethical fact.)
Mumminmum · 02/12/2018 16:31

So according to your logic, it is also weird, when white, European women want to help black African women avoid FGM? How about when Christians go to Palenstine to be human shields at schools? When young people help old people? When ablebodied people help disabled people?

Maybe you should look up the word "empathy".

VickyEadie · 02/12/2018 16:35

'Why should men treat women with decency', eh?

Graphista · 02/12/2018 16:38

Because it's possible to care about more than one cause.

I'm a feminist, I'm also a vegetarian, I suffer from mental illness myself so I try where possible to support ALL who also suffer (FYI men may have higher rates of completed suicide but I believe the number of people who attempt suicide weights towards women more, this is more to do with preferred methods than intent), I have a 17 yr old daughter so I do what I can re youth rights too eg nmw inequality.

Broadly I'm a socialist, I believe in equality for everyone.

Because half the population is female oppressing half of society is damaging to society as a whole

Because toxic masculinity which hurts men has its roots in patriarchy/misogyny

Because we still have a LONG way to go till we're anywhere NEAR equality for women & girls. Those girls and women are mens mothers, sisters, wives, daughters etc so if you don't believe in equality for them do you even care about them?

traceyracer · 02/12/2018 16:39

but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?

wasn't there once an experiment were 2 classes of boys and 2 classes of girls were given a maths test. One class of boys were told before the test something like "girls are much cleverer and better at maths than boys". The boys who weren't told that performed about the same as the girls, but the boys who were told they weren't as good performed much worse than the girls.

My point is a self-fulfilled prophecy is a real thing. Telling girls they can do or be anything they want is great but I think feminism is unfairly harsh on males.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/12/2018 16:47

Tracy ... that experiment sounds like a demonstration of 'stereotype threat', but configured in the opposite direction to how, for a long time, it actually existed in real life. The feminist point of view is to not tell any child they're bad at maths. Fairness for girls does not mean unfairness towards boys.

WaxOnFeckOff · 02/12/2018 16:50

but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?

I don't tell my sons they are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads Hmm.

I tell them I love them, that they are kind, intelligent and handsome, I tell them that they should find something that they love to do and do it the best they can, that hard work gives you more choices and opportunities and that they should seek a partner in life and treat them exactly as they would like to be treated themselves. I set them the example of trying to do exactly that myself as does their dad.

We should be telling all children to look beyond the horizon and to strive for what they want. Not everyone can be or do anything they want, but they can definitely try their hardest.

traceyracer · 02/12/2018 16:52

I tried to find the study I mentioned and found this. It can go either way

www.reuters.com/article/us-maths-girls/girls-do-badly-at-math-when-told-boys-better-study-idUSN2242207920070524

JellySlice · 02/12/2018 16:55

Feminism helps society in general.

Look at countries and societies where women's rights are restricted, where their testimony is not valued, where they alone are required to behave in specific ways and punished for disobeying. These countries/societies are always governed by totalitarian regimes, often theocracies. Dissent of any sort is repressed and education is restricted.

Mumminmum · 02/12/2018 16:59

The Scandinavian countries all have more equality for women than the British society does. All three countries range higher on the happiness index, proving that both women and men are happier in more equalitarian societies.

MrsTerryPratcett · 02/12/2018 16:59

but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?

I am white. I grew up in a world where white police officers were killing young black men. Where black people were discriminated against horribly. My black and Asian friends feared assault (lots of BNP in my area). I knew. I didn't think I was the problem, I thought the system was the problem and I wanted an end to oppression. I was in the Anti Nazi League.

I didn't ignore the oppression because it wasn't me FFS. And I certainly didn't turn into a racist because I heard racism existed. Any prejudice I carry is the result of the system, not the fight against the system.