Why should men support feminism?

[ScottCheggJnr]

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

This is a genuine question.

"but isn't feminism bad if you have a son? would you want your son growing up in a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc and it ends up becoming a self-fulfilled prophecy?"
Is that what feminists do? Shit, I've been doing it wrong for 40 years.

Why should men care about equality for women??

There was a lady who posted on here who ran 2 organisations
One was for men where there was a drop in centre for men and also I think outreach to help men with mental health loneliness and other things

She als o ran much the same for women

She said that women never questioned her about but wha5 about the women regarding her men’s organisation

But she said every single day she had men questioning her about why was she centring women in the women’s organisation and what about men

its not an equalities movement, its a liberation movement which might frame it differently for you.

And a lot of the issues for men are part of the patriarchy too so it all helps everyone.

Well, because, if you're a selfish bastard, you could do it because liberation from the oppression of patriarchy benefits men nearly as much as it does women because it frees them from toxic ideas of masculinity and violence. Or if you're not, because it's the right thing to do.

And no, feminism isn't bad if you have sons. What a crock. My sons just have a wider understanding of systems of oppression and how they work. They are better human beings for it.

So that they can have a willing partner and helpmeet rather than a slave who resents and hates them - or no one at all, because we've got pissed off and set up our own countries away from the current crop of dominant males?
When outcomes are more equal for women the 'might is right' mentality doesn't work, which works quite well for most men as well. Generally societies that are more equal are more equal for all, men and women. We all benefit.

littlebrowndog that was Jessica Eaton, she's a powerhouse and I love her. She set up and runs the first mental health and wellbeing centre for men in the UK. It's still one of very few. She also runs Victim Focus which focusses on reducing victim blaming which increases the trauma experienced by women after CSE/CSA and abuse. Constantly gets a pile of whataboutery from men about Victim Focus.

Oh ta Mel
I read about her and was so impressed by her work but I couldn’t recall who she was but did read about the whataboutry she got

Interesting that you want to ask what's in it for you, intentionally on a feminism forum.

So you've sought out women interested in women's rights, come here on purpose to ask them. That's a lot of effort to make on something you apparently don't care about, so the question is why are you annoyed enough by women thinking about women to come here and demand they explain themselves?

a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc

That is not feminism.

That is toxic masculinity.

As a mother of sons, i'd also like the partners of my DC (if they choose a woman) and the mothers of any grandchildren to be equal in society and to be successful in whatever they do in their own right and not just as part of a couple.

With a truly equal society, men don't have to worry about being the provider and the boss all the time. My DH knows that if he gets sick I an do everything that needs to be done and live on my income for a while since we have a decent skills match and can fill in for each other. He will not have to worry about a descent into poverty because I am unable to access employment based on my gender.

I think feminism benefits men too but a lot of it is related to definitions of feminism. I discuss feminism with my student son a lot who watches some men's rights stuff mainly from the US on you tube and comes up with words like gynocentric and thinks that feminism means all men belong to "the patriarchy" and are trying to oppress all women. I'm a feminist who is uncomfortable with the term the patriarchy.
For me feminism is about everyone achieving their potential , male or female. Males have traditionally suppressed females in our society because they are stronger and we have been socialised to put their needs first. This doesn't mean there is a conspiracy amongst men to do this though. Having a frustrated partner with low self esteem isn't good for either sex. Men do seem to see maid like qualities in women desirable in a way that women don't though and I do think women have to fight not to do the "wife work" in a relationship.

a society where he constantly hears that males are stupid/violent/deadbeat dads etc etc

Two options really.

One is think about why women talk about this being their experience and as a result teach your son to be intelligently questioning, to understand that violence and abusive behaviour is unacceptable under any circumstances and won't lead to any fulfilling relationship for him, and to be a good father.

The other is to just ask women to stop talking about it. #nodebate has been used by other MRA groups, but frankly it hasn't worked well for them.

I also want my sons to realise their feelings and preferences DO matter. If they're into football and Fortnight than that's fine in moderation, similarly if they can't stand team games and like Minecraft that's fine as well. What I want them to feel is not to let people think they are essentially wild animals with no control over impulses or that they are cannon fodder next time there's a war. That they are people first and personalities first and their preferences and interests do not make them less of a boy than anyone else.

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

What isn't straightforward about equality?

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

That's because it is women who are unequal - who get paid less, who get penalised for having children, who still work more hours unpaid in the home and caring for others. Of course there are individual exceptions but this is still the pattern of our society. The challenges women face are structural and culturally ingrained. And they affect all women to a greater or lesser degree, unlike the examples you give.

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

There's nothing to stop you being a feminist AND focusing on men's issues. They are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, as pps have pointed out, greater equality for the sexes and erosion of damaging gender stereotypes and expectations would help men as well as women. Also, isn't there something rather unpleasant about celebrating the exclusion of women from positions of power and influence?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

The patriarchy arose in the past but it is maintained in the present by millions of actions, large and small, on the part of both men and women. What does 'not actively fighting' mean? It sounds a lot like letting a highly damaging status quo continue. Every time you don't challenge or question inequality, whether it's pay levels, or women at senior levels being denied the right to work flexible hours, or a man who jokes about 'women of a certain age', or your wife doing your laundry, or your daughter thinking engineering isn't for girls, you are propping up the patriarchy.

This is a genuine question.

Then I hope you will think carefully about the answers you receive.

Oops, bold fail Trying again...

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

What isn't straightforward about equality?

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

That's because it is women who are unequal - who get paid less, who get penalised for having children, who still work more hours unpaid in the home and caring for others. Of course there are individual exceptions but this is still the pattern of our society. The challenges women face are structural and culturally ingrained. And they affect all women to a greater or lesser degree, unlike the examples you give.

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

There's nothing to stop you being a feminist AND focusing on men's issues. They are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, as pps have pointed out, greater equality for the sexes and erosion of damaging gender stereotypes and expectations would help men as well as women. Also, isn't there something rather unpleasant about celebrating the exclusion of women from positions of power and influence?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

The patriarchy arose in the past but it is maintained in the present by millions of actions, large and small, on the part of both men and women. What does 'not actively fighting' mean? It sounds a lot like letting a highly damaging status quo continue. Every time you don't challenge or question inequality, whether it's pay levels, or women at senior levels being denied the right to work flexible hours, or a man who jokes about 'women of a certain age', or your wife doing your laundry, or your daughter thinking engineering isn't for girls, you are propping up the patriarchy.

This is a genuine question.

Then I hope you will think carefully about the answers you receive.

This may have already have been said, but there are issues where women's and men's rights intersect. For instance...
'Every time you don't challenge or question inequality, whether it's pay levels, or women at senior levels being denied the right to work flexible hours' ...well, yes; but also we should challenge if a man (at any level) is denied flexible working hours if he, like the woman, needs them to care for his children or his elderly parents. 'We' being both feminists and men supporting men's rights.

Some interesting replies.

Just to be clear, I meant it as a hypothetical question. I do support equality like most men I've met, but I was interested to hear people's thoughts.

I do see a lot of statements like "if you don't support feminism, you're a misogynist" but never the reverse, hence the question.

@ErrolTheDragon Fair point - I agree

feminist and misogynist are not opposites.

Is this just the difference between 'support' and 'actively engage in' ?

The problem I've seen with men's issues like "men's suicide rate" is that the vast majority of men simply cannot be arsed to do anything to help each other out.
Well this really. As has been pointed out, most of the grunt work in social care is being done by women anyway. It's not that women don't care about the male suicide rate, it's that we have quite a lot on our plate already!
And I don't bring my son up to think men are deadbeat dads. His father does that for me, sadly.
What you want OP is a get-out. A reason not to feel bad about the shit piled on women. Sorry I can't accommodate.

That's because it is women who are unequal - who get paid less, who get penalised for having children

Women actually outearn men up until around the age of motherhood, and studies have found that they're promoted more aggressively than their male peers if they stay in the workplace and forego motherhood.

This considered, think there's a good argument that it's the time taken out from one's career which contributes most to the difference in earnings - missed promotion opportunities/experience etc.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but harsh as it sounds I can see why small business owners pick the candidate who is less likely to disappear from the business and leave them to shoulder the additional costs of hiring a replacement whilst paying maternity pay. Most businesses ultimately care about the bottom line, and it's not just men making these choices - there are plenty of unsympathetic women in the Sophia Amoruso vein.

No, because women who don't have children still fall behind.