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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why should men support feminism?

292 replies

ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 14:33

Although I personally support equality in the workplace etc, when I think about it objectively it's not a straightforward situation.

Although we often hear that feminism is about equality, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women and focusing on their problems (this is certainly evident in practice).

So the question is....if feminists are focusing on the issues affecting them negatively (workplace etc) but ignoring the areas where men fare worst (suicide/murder/assault/etc) then why shouldn't us men just be focusing on the areas where we fare worse and celebrating the areas where we experience benefit?

Many elements of the patriarchy arguably exist because of the past rather than contemporary issues/men, so as long as I'm not actively fighting equality, why should I support a cause which doesn't support the issues faced by my own gender?

This is a genuine question.

OP posts:
DoctorTwo · 02/12/2018 19:55

Sorry, I meant sex is how we're conceived

DoctorTwo · 02/12/2018 19:56

3rd time lucky. Sex is determined at conception.

Fuxache

Cuppaqueen · 02/12/2018 20:00

Given that 20% of women don't have children (I don't know the equivalent for men - probably no one bothers to record it Hmm) there must be a lot of people out there for whom providing for a family is not the end goal. It's certainly not the one I'd guess most people start out with! How about status, wealth, travel, a home, security for the future?

Of course, couples should work as a partnership. But the divorce rate is high and the Relationships boards on MN are full of stories of women being left stranded when their 'd'h buggers off. It is enormously risky for women to take time off from their careers to have kids, especially long-term. Yet many find their old jobs don't want them back! Or that their promotion prospects are mysteriously dead.

I have to stop posting now as it's late here (I live abroad) but I am glad you are thinking about these things. Too many people just accept 'the way things are' without ever questioning it.

ICJump · 02/12/2018 20:01

But one thing that is rarely acknowledged on here is that men are judged by their income to a much greater extent than are women

Guess what Scott? Feminism is working towards ending that sort of bullshit.
Who do you think fraught for paternity leave? Guess what feminists.
If you can’t see the positive impact feminism has made to to men then you aren’t liking very hard.

redcarbluecar · 02/12/2018 20:05

" the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's solely about achieving equality for women"

And why shouldn't that be the case? By definition, equality doesn't exclude men, or issues that primarily affect men.

MrsTerryPratcett · 02/12/2018 20:08

You clearly think sexism is fine. So no, you shouldn't support feminism.

IfNotNowBernard · 02/12/2018 20:09

40% more overtime worked by men in the UK?
You mean paid recorded overtime. Women often work a lot of unpaid overtime, particularly in the healthcare industry. And, you do realise don't you, that part time working women are also being paid part time money and getting a shitty pension? I HAVE to work really hard now to make up for a few years of providing for my family on part time money. Because no other fucker was willing to.
And I don't (attempt) to have a career to only to provide for my family. A job does that. I, and every man I know actually, wants a career to provide satisfaction, validation, status and possibility. That's an entirely selfish pursuit ( and I'm pursuing it so I'm not judging) but I dont kid myself it's all for the benefit of my family.
Oh, also your assertion about "studies" showing that, pre children, women get promoted faster, that's bollocks. Look it up ( I don't have time I'm working!)

GraceTheDisgrace · 02/12/2018 20:15

This thread is an example of why men should really just leave feminists alone.

There is nothing constructive or genuine about a man occupying women's time with quibbling over whether sex-based oppression exists.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 20:18

It'sIt's ask rarely discussed that it's a very small % of men earning the very top salaries, which likely skews the figures.

Granted it's still men and not women, but the average guy never gets to be a CEO.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 20:20

There is nothing constructive or genuine about a man occupying women's time with quibbling over whether sex-based oppression exists.

No theory should be exempt from analysis/debate, and some feminists seem to be particularly resistant to debate.

The proposed reasons for the pay gap are a theory not a fact and many people (including the very successful women in the video I posted above) don't believe they're down to discrimination.

OP posts:
BobTheDuvet · 02/12/2018 20:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AssassinatedBeauty · 02/12/2018 20:23

What do you think the pay gap is down to then Scott?

peanut2017 · 02/12/2018 20:24

Here we go again OP - have we met before...sounds familiar

Truckingonandon · 02/12/2018 20:32

Despite your protestations, you are deeply mysogenistic and are quite evidently an underperforming, bitter man who feels passed over.

MrsTerryPratcett · 02/12/2018 20:35

some feminists seem to be particularly resistant to debate

I'm resistant to having the same debate constantly with no results for 30 years. It's exhausting. It's not worth our valuable time.

I do think it would be worth every feminist having a cut and paste file with the same evidence, videos and appeals to humanity. Save some time.

Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 20:52

A myriad of factors possibly, some being historical.

What I've observed is many women I know focusing hard on their careers until they're in a stable relationship/marriage and then seemingly being happy to embrace motherhood and let their partner become the primary earner.

I think radical feminists represent a minority of women and most women don't prioritise competing with men as a primary life goal. Most are more concerned with their own family and whether as a unit they can pay the bills/live a comfortable life.

OP posts:
Original poster
ScottCheggJnr · 02/12/2018 20:52

Replying to AB.

OP posts:
ICJump · 02/12/2018 21:12

Oh us foolish women priotising the health and well-being if the next generation. How silly we are to try to ensure the human race continues.

Honestly just stop being a a twat.

2rebecca · 02/12/2018 21:17

Many women I know earn more that their husbands or don't have any men in the household. They don't see this as a "competition" they're just doing what they want to do or are stuck with doing. I earn more than my husband, my SIL earns more than my brother who is a stay at home father.
Men and women are both capable of working in intellectually demanding jobs and child rearing.

peanut2017 · 02/12/2018 21:20

How general your comments on. 'Most women' is a bit of a catch all statement don't you think?

It's so individual to a woman and her relationship as to how much she focuses
on work /home.

I've just had my second child and am fairly senior in my company. Have missed out on a couple of opportunities to get a good increase as was out on maternity leave. Some days I want to go to work and some days I don't. However I know long term being at home full time is not for me. Also I am the main earner.

If you understood how the patriarchal systems works - it was firstly set up my men. That's right - women where not at the party. Therefore it doesn't always work for women. Unfortunately a lot of women do and are expected to take a step back when children arrive. Sometimes this is positive and sometimes it is negative for them.

If it was a more equal system then it wouldn't be seen to be such a big deal to take time out to have babies.

You do know women couldn't always vote?? Think about that for a second. We were not allowed vote. Rape in a marriage was not against the law until not that long ago. So you see we are constantly trying to play catch up.

SonEtLumiere · 02/12/2018 21:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MIdgebabe · 02/12/2018 21:22

I a man confused by this thread. People have observed the impact of a patriarchical society, seen that many women don’t fight it, and many seem happy with their lot and therefore ? Us feminists should go away?

ICJump · 02/12/2018 21:27

One thing men forgot so often I almost everything they do is included in GDP figures. Where as a massive amount of that women do isn’t. theconversation.com/womens-unpaid-work-must-be-included-in-gdp-calculations-lessons-from-history-98110

This happens in developed countries too

Knicknackpaddyflak · 02/12/2018 21:27

most women don't prioritise competing with men as a primary life goal

Radical feminists have no interest in 'competing with men'. You're wholly misinterpreting what radical feminism is, and wholly over estimating their interest in and focus on men when they focus on that feminism. 'Competing' with men isn't a goal in any way, although that explains why you're resentful of 'feminists' as women getting out of their place.

We really need an eye roll emoticon.

My God, these 'instructive intellectual chats' are so bloody tedious.

Pumkinsoup · 02/12/2018 21:35

It'sIt's ask rarely discussed that it's a very small % of men earning the very top salaries, which likely skews the figures.

www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/---dgreports/---dcomm/---publ/documents/publication/wcms_650553.pdf

The ILO gender pay gap report analyses all aspect of the pay gap including structural vs discrimination 'unexplained' aspects of it. UK is looking most unequal in European developed economies, and the gap is not all structural (actually only small part of it is), i.e. it cannot entirely be explained by the type of jobs and working hours of women vs men. It shows that women in UK are paid less like for like. Female CEO paid less than male CEO, female middle earners are paid less than male middle earners and surprisingly female low skilled workers are paid less than male low skilled workers. There is significant gender pay gap in UK for hourly wages and monthly salaries, for part time and for full time work, for public and for private sector. Why is that?