Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

I often see people saying it's been reported. I think an offensive post like that should be publicly called out anyway.

I guess it proves why people are so reluctant to engage on these boards though.

98% and 2% aren't remotely equal (male vs female perps of sexual offences). There are 3 times more men in prison for sexual offences that there are in prison at all.

I would be very interested to know why so many women are so keen to portray women as being just as violent as men when they aren't, by a country mile. I have come across this in real life too, women damning women in this way.

.

"I guess it proves why people are so reluctant to engage on these boards though."

No it really doesn't. All it proves is that one post by one person is offensive. It's not representative of everyone who posts here, it's not representative of people who post on MN as a whole. It is bizarre to take one post and use it as justification for anything.

“And I think that you are being unduly harsh claiming that a NT boy of 8 should be able to organise themselves. Some can, some might need help”

I didn’t say they should. I said that if they couldn’t, it was up to their parents to find a solution that doesn’t involve asking girls to budge up.

And incidentally, I think posts like that should stay to show the poster to be the arsehole they are.

After having children I am more understanding of the differences between men and women and how women suffer as a result. But I’m not a femenist. I disagree with too much femenist policy/action/thought to put my name to it. It’s just one of those things that comes from being an individual first and foremost. I agree with a lot that Christianity preaches and sometimes I long for spiritual community but I could never get over how disgusting and wrong the notion of original sin is. I only put my name to things I agree with or mostly agree with an have no major disagreements with.

Where has it been said that women are just as violent as men? Someone said that women can be violent too which is true, but isn't saying at the same rate as men.

My issue is that for some, every decision appears to boil down to a threat of attack when actually a great many other issues affect decisions that I take.

The changing room issue is one example of it. On many threads I've seen women explain how banning young boys from going into the ladies toilets, with their mums, actually curtails the freedom of those mums. That they aren't able to go out and about if they can't actually go to the toilet themselves or take their sons to the toilet because over 8s can't go in the ladies toilet (or over 6s as one poster demanded). So that is a very real barrier for some women because some women claim that having males in the ladies toilet infringes on their rights - a possible argument if you are talking about older boys or men, but really 8 year olds?

I think there's a tendency, if someone comes on here and expresses a particular view that isn't in line with most of the regular posters, to ask them to explain every single view that isn't in line with the regular posters (eg Bertrand's swimming pool example to me and others). I can't do that, I can only answer for myself and not for every other non feminist or feminist who has their own views.

Maybe I'm just crap at joining groups lol but I can't answer why someone would have a problem with a boy (or a girl) going in the appropriate changing room. I don't know. I wouldn't. So I can't answer that.

I'm also very bad a nuances of conversations especially when written down and tend to answer in a straightforward manner, which I know can come across as brusque (even when I try not to be)

@mephistopholes:

Yes, no compromise...or that's the ideal. Whatever you do; whatever you are passionate about, then total commitment. This relates to all manner of things in life. Generally, if you are seeking total transformation then you have to be very intent on it. If you have ever had that 'born again' moment; or that moment of awakening - then nothing else will ever suffice.

Of course, we are all human beings at the end of the day.....but I, personally, don't feel you can ever un'see something you have seen.

See. I don’t do and could never see me doing a born again moment.

I didn’t say they should. I said that if they couldn’t, it was up to their parents to find a solution that doesn’t involve asking girls to budge up.

I just don't see that a mum needing to take her 8yr old into the changing room is expecting girls to "budge up".

And quite how parents are expected to just somehow get their son to manage I don't know. So for a single mum, if her son can't quite get it by the age of 8 they can't go swimming or out where one or other may need to use a public toilet because by that age he should be able to be left to his own devices and if he can't there's no one to show him how because he can't go with his mum and his mum can't go with him?

See. I don’t do and could never see me doing a born again moment.

Me either. No do I want a total transformation either. All sounds a bit cultish to me.

What age do you suggest? Bear in mind 8 is the age quoted by NSPCC and 7 by many social service-consulted councils.

@Weetabixand shreddies

I think you are correct to the extent that many of us take things too personally - when really what is being offered is a systemic analysis. We are all part of the dominant ethic or system, and take part in that even if unconsciously and habitually. So to the extent that we take part in that - we have responsibility to look upon and reflect on our own part in that.

I do agree, though, that sometimes some women can get too involved in the men versus women 'thing' - and in doing so over-generalise and in a way which is lazy. All men become bastards or potential bastards.

A lot will depend on your own personal story and history and your experience of male/female relationships. I think it is also a generalisation, however, to state or think that all women who post on here, or who claim the label 'feminist' are the same; thereby categorising all 'radical' identified women as man hating, cliquey or bullying etc.

I've always identified as a radical in my life - but generally like men, have had generally positive relationships with men; my father etc

'Radical' for me implies passion and commitment to living a life of passion and integrity.

Don't forget that all on-line message boards tend to go the same way, and that twitter is also an incredibly negative space - generally speaking.
Mumsnet is not any different really - certainly not when it becomes cliquey and people use it as a crutch. We all tend to mis-read each other and read in our own prejudices.

Still, I really thank Mumsnet for the my last few months of membership: for the sense of solidarity and sisterhood that I have experienced since waking up to the transgender agenda.

I'm in a good place tonight, so I hope it's okay if I re-rail the thread to people who ARE feminists. I had two of the loveliest imaginable conversations today - both at work - and I feel irrationally almost moved to tears as I'm reflecting upon them on my way home:

Conversation #1 was with a female apprentice. She's 18 and doing three days' worth of work experience with a female executive at the firm as part of our gender diversity program. I have the true privilege of being her assigned female executive.

Had a chat over lunch today and, somewhat randomly, happened upon the subject of feminism. That woman may be 18, but she's got it! The whole thing resulted in a lengthy conversation about our firm's take on gender diversity and my personal take on it in my role as "designated home grown female success story show pony" of the firm. I walked away with a lot of input that I firmly intend to take to my own, exclusively male, higher ups as the authentic voice of our junior female talent. Today was the day when I decided that this woman - barely in terms of adulthood being part of the definition of "woman" I subscribe to g was going to be part of our management team a decade from now. I feel humbled and privileged alike to have such a thoughtful, articulate and unabashedly feminist woman among my list of employees I intend to raise hell for going forward!

Conversation #2 couldn't have been more different if I'd tried and happened during a client's employee's leaving do that attended. Conversation partner was a man about the age of my own parents but from a background similar to my own and is also, technically, a client. Somehow, over a few drinks, we happened upon developments in women's rights both in theory and in practice. The whole thing turned into a conversation that I reminded myself several times I probably shouldn't be having in my professional capacity but enjoyed a lot too much to cut short. It, too, consisted of me being unabashedly and vocally feminist and touching on social, legal and religious topics and this man, who happens to be the same age as my dad, agreeing with me and encouraging me to be a lot more pushy and straightforward.

I managed not to cry because I'm a professional. But what I really meant to ask was:

What happened to men? How come I get to have these conversations with men my father's age and get agreement and encouragement? Have the same conversations with men my own age and manage, after some argument, to get them to agree (I'm 36)? But struggle to impress on my graduate hires, both male and female, that gender roles is a thing and that women get discriminated on the grounds that people make assumptions based on sex? Even though these people know me only as "the boss' boss"?

Long story short: there are feminists out there, still. Or male allies - depending on whether you believe men can be feminists, too (undecided on this one, personally).

I know I'm rambling and I'm sorry. But I do, genuinely, feel humbled and proud in equal measure after today. And I genuinely hope that my high-level account of meeting two unapologetic feminists within just one day - a very young woman and a man old enough to be my dad - gives courage to someone out there somewhere.

Justhadathought

I don't have the problem with radical feminism per se. My issue really is with posters on mumsnet who are very quick to put others down, insult them or belittle them for having a different view.

I think talking about differing points of view is fantastic and maybe we can learn from the views of others but it seems that just doesn't happen on the feminist boards.

It is a very one way street. If you agree wholeheartedly, great, you are one of the gang. If not you will be ridiculed, judicious quoting of your posts to twist them into a whole new meaning, sarcastic remarks, in jokes designed to keep you as the outsider etc.

The more I see the more it turns me away which is sad. They are very quick to castigate men for their treatment of women yet are quite happy to dole it out themselves.

SkullPointerException

Your points are interesting to read but (and I hate myself for asking this) what is a gender diversity programme?

@zzzz

i'm wondering how you imagine one 'becomes' a feminist? Genuine question.

For me, any woman with a voice, who can observe and reflect upon the general 'condition' of women is a feminist. We don't require a label. It is just that we are used to a 'masculinist' view-point/gaze/set of priorities even if it is not called as such. Any woman speaking from a woman's perspective and with any strength of conviction - becomes a 'feminist'.

Maybe it is an age thing? I'm 53, born in the 1960's and came of age in a society that was still quite different for women than it is now -in terms of expectations and aspirations. I was always encouraged, personally - but it didn't stop me from observing the general condition and treatment of women; their bodies; their thoughts; feelings; their experiences etc

My mother's generation was medicated with valium; had to get married when pregnant. There was no legal abortion. Women were still expected to give up work on marriage. couldn't have a mortgage in their own right. there was no equal pay act. Doctors and lawyers were always pictured as male.

I hate on here when posters talk about legal abortion. As if suddenly the whole of the Uk got legal abortion.

It didn’t.

It still doesn’t all have legal abortion.

And technically abortion is still illegal. There are exceptions allowed under law due to the 1967 Act but the OAPA still applies.

Weetabixandshreddies

It's this thing they do when you happen to work in corporate STEM and 90 percent of your colleagues are male and it occurs to the powers that be that hiring is a numbers game and wouldn't it be neat if we had access to the entire talent pool of bright graduates as opposed to only the 50 percent who happen to have a penis? So they start making monetary investments into attracting and retaining female employees.

And, disregarding the sarcasm, I'm actually a big proponent.

@weetabix

I don't use a mobile, or engage in twitter and post on just a few message boards/foreums. They all go the same way after a while. It is the nature of anonymously posting; and also the nature of people - in that form into cliques and gangs. Most of us, at some point, need to step away from forums. Just pop in for updates, info and the occasional exchange.

I've only been posting on here for a couple of months - and only on the women's rights board. No interest in any of the others. I recognise what you are saying - but also think that one shouldn't generalise about all based on the attitude of a few.

It has been a great resource for me.

@Weetabix

I've been genuine, honest and open with you about how I live and experience my life, and yet I am starting to find you equally as judgmental as those you chide. We are not all the same. We require all sorts of people, with different temperaments and skills. Every movement; every organisation.

You seem to have come here to rebuff rather than commune?