Women who aren't feminists

[HumourlessFeminist]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I was blissfully unaware of feminism for far too long 😳, probably until a few years after DS was born (and after a few years of MNing). Is this a relatively common experience for women? Are women more likely to become feminists as they experience more of what the patriarchy pushes upon them throughout their lives? And why do some women never become feminists?

Justhadathought

Did you even think to advance search zzz before you made that accusation?

Nor see the irony of women coming onto this thread saying they get accused of being a man if they disagree with the current accepted opinion, being told that it doesn't happen, then being accused of being a man!!

I think sometimes it's interesting to go back and spot the deletions on a thread....

Materialist

You can appreciate and wholeheartedly agree with where something been without agreeing where it's going.

Materialist

Why is it assumed that those of us who disagree with the arguments on this board don't know anything about feminism?

I know. I just don't agree with your version nor where it is heading.

"You can appreciate and wholeheartedly agree with where something been without agreeing where it's going"
Where do you think feminism's going?

But third wave feminism (which seems often to be the wave getting the most consternation) is arguably different and many of its proponent aren't middle aged.

I'd also say that IMO a lot of what is passed off as feminism on this forum is in fact plain old whinging, usually about men.

I don’t think it’s too much to expect someone who has criticisms about feminism to actually know what it is they’re criticising. Or, when people suggest that they’re criticising based on false assumptions, they express some willingness to learn more.

If you limit the discussion to only those who have studied (to university standard or what standard is acceptable?) it you are automatically excluding a significant proportion of females from even discussing it let alone forming their own opinion.

I'm not sure that fits with feminist ideas of increasing women's agency.

You can appreciate and wholeheartedly agree with where something been without agreeing where it's going.

And where do you claim feminism is going that you don't like?

As I see it, we are struggling to keep the rights we already thought we had for sure.
Not much time to achieve anything new.

This isnt really a thread for whether my views on individual topics are feminist or not. This was a thread wondering why women who don't consider themselves feminists don't. I think I've already covered that somewhat

I know. I just don't agree with your version nor where it is heading.

What exact version and views don't you agree with and where do you think "this version" of feminism is heading in future?

I have no idea if you are arguing or engaging with actual views or the ones you just assume people here have.

Do you believe that women should have the right to vote? Have equal pay in the work place? Own property? You're a feminist

This, or similar, gets said a lot on here to try to convince women who say they aren't feminists that they really are. But, by that definition other than extreme religious groups/ surrendered wives and the like, almost everyone , including men, are feminists.

The trans/safe spaces/ identity politics issues have resulted in radical feminists finding support from the professional contrarian, free speech brigade. By that I mean people like Julia Hartley- Brewer, Sarah Vine, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Rod Liddle, Brendan O'Neill, Andrew Neil. All of these people however inevitability get a health warning posted about them that "they are no friends to women/ feminism"

Not one of them would disagree with the the questions Do you believe that women should have the right to vote? Have equal pay in the work place? Own property?

Are they in facts feminists too?

I do think motherhood is a great radicaliser. My life was definitely fairly unaffected by patriarchy until I got pregnant. I have a lovely DH who does a lot with DS, he looked after him full time for about 4 months last year. Unfortunately, while he was very capable of sorting out the baby, it transpired that the poor dear couldn’t also manage housework and had absolutely no fucking concept of what actually goes into running a house - THE WIFEWORK. God it pissed me off. Discovering that actually, my “equal” relationship wasn’t equal at all. I’d been enabling the fucker for 8 years, washing his clothes, prompting him to hoover, sorting out all the bills. I just fell into it with my eyes shut

But that has nothing to do with "the patriarchy". I'm sorry but this post encapsulates so much about what turns me off about feminism (or rather one version of it).

You (general you) are a grown-up- your husbands (general) are grown-ups. If you (general again) decide to enable the fucker for 8 years, washing his clothes, prompting him to hoover, sorting out all the bills that is your decision and up to you to resolve it. This has nothing to do with patriarchical oppression.

I agree Lass, I married a jazz musician because he was sexy and interesting and would produce good offspring, that genetic attraction wore off quite quickly. Women don't have to stay with men that get dull provided we manage parenting well. Women can live quite freely provided we understand the economic and personal compromises of either being in a twin or a solo financial unit.

Lots of people say women should be treated equally compared with men - but what does this mean?

Should feminists care only about issues where women are adversely affected? Eg should they campaign for increasing men’s access to university so the proportions are equal? Or is it enough to say it’s ok as long as there aren’t huge legal or discriminatory barriers?

I think most feminists never describe or even think of themselves as feminists.

I do think that is very true, zzzzz - of many, at least. I don't think it is a requirement to understand "feminist theory" for instance - because it's not really an academic theory at heart. It's not about learning something academic, it's about understanding through experience of inequality. And I know what you mean about 'small f feminism'. As I said elsewhere - it's not really about an identity or label for me. That said, my ideas and beliefs do happen to align pretty well with those of 2nd wave feminism.

Should feminists care only about issues where women are adversely affected?

Yes. That's why it is called feminism. The thing where you care about all humans is philanthropy, I think. Also a good thing, but not feminism.

It is important to use precise language.

(Off topic, but the fact that not as many men go to university isn't a problem for men, it is because men don't need as much education to be paid the same amount of money women need to go to university for. Equal pay would "fix" that "issue", quite likely. )

@zzzzz: I think most feminists realize they are feminists when others call them feminists in an attempt to insult them.

I don't remember who said it, but there's this great quote "I don't know if I'm a feminist, but people always call me one if I express any opinion that differentiates me from a doormat" or something along those lines.

With regard to the comments about 'bringing men down' - when men (as a class) are used to being in charge, favoured, having the best opportunities, then women (as a class) attempting to have an equal chance at life must feel like being brought down. I know it's been pointed out by many people before but it bears repeating I think. Although feminism centres women, the effect on men is not always positive. There must be many positive effects (eg liberation from toxic masculinity would be wonderful if it could be achieved), but overall (and as a class) men will do worse if women really did achieve equality. But that's not me deliberately setting out with 'bringing men down' in mind, just centring women.

As I think many on here have said, you can't increase the rights for one group by attacking the rights of others.

It's legitimate to confront that.

Perhaps you could describe the things you want to make worse for men and explain how they increase women's rights or are justified?

I often see feminists rallying against things like International Men's Day, which surely has little benefit to women. When one considers the male suicide rate (which IMD tries to address) it's unforgivable.

I very much doubt that fighting against international Men‘s day is on the agenda of feminism, but whatever.

"I often see feminists rallying against things like International Men's Day"

Do you? Just checking-have you seen the response of men to International Women's Day?

For the record, I think International Men's Day is a fabulous idea. I just wish more men would get behind it and make things happen.

I worry that many of the things discussed on the board result in the increased (self) segregation of women not the decrease.

I worry that many of the arguments to support this enforce the idea of women as inevitable victims.

I find very little solidarity and a lot of personal attacks if you disagree (my opinion is more intellectual that your feminism, you don't agree with me you must be a man).

And actually I don't think that woman have it bad by and large these days. Having a son with SN I realise what oppression really does look like. Some of the stuff moaned about on here is so minor by comparison. I find myself commenting on thread where sticking up for women is the the detriment of the disabled, and where society shift that help the disabled are being fought by people who would identify themselves as feminists. If I find I'm kicking back against feminists, albeit for my own reasons, that probably doesn't make me a feminist.

Stuff where the genuine oppression of women is really difficult is the family courts. Been raising it for a long time it's only now a woman with a rape conviction has hit the headlines it's being discussed. But stories of women suffering domestic abuse, some cases even with Social services are telling the woman she must leave, then the kids being handing back in access are all over the relationships board.

Yet a large percentage of some, if not all, of the chat on the board is the terf war and gender critical thinking. It like putting out the BBQ while rome burns. (And the BBQ might not end up not being a bad thing in the long run anyway)