Women's Hour today, Michelle Moore and Layla Moran, on safeguarding

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/BBCWomansHour/status/1067347907911782400

Agree that handing over parts of govt to the charity sector is problematic. I am a trustee of a charity providing such govt services - fortunately we are sensible and well-run . But Kids Company is a reminder of how these organisations can get corrupted by lack of scrutiny. Mermaids appears to be similar. Stonewall is well on the way with their refusal to listen to their members and refusal to debate women publicly.

I don't think that the charities have the same aims as the government. Eg Jo's trust does a lot of the cervical cancer awareness promotion for the govt. and is referred to by the NHS. They are there because someone's relative died of cervical cancer and they want every woman to not die of cervical cancer and want every woman screened to work towards this. They are at odds with the screening programme who say that screening is a choice and they obscure the reasons why some would choose not to, or feel it is not in their interests, as that is not their aim. It is a small difference in perspective, but important to some people and results in them feeling bullied and coerced.
(not intending to argue the rights and wrongs of this particular example, but it is something I have come across that has opened my eyes to the changes of emphasis this policy can create).

Charities are lobby groups with an agenda which is socially virtuous in intent.

However, the road to hell can be paved with good intention.

They exist for a single purpose and do not have to consider unintended consquences to other areas of society. As long as they achieve their stated aim, thats all that matters. The limitation of their scope - as Melamin points out with the example above - is deeply problematic.

We are aware of the pitfuls of outsourcing to the private sector for profit, but many of the same problems exist with charities for exactly the same reasons.

Being independant of government they are not as transparent nor as accountable.

For starters there is an inability to see a money trail and an inability to FOI a charity. That does make them also vulnerable to piggy backing for potentially nefarious means, if that happened to be an unintended consequence...

The Charity Sector is not necessarily regulated well either.

Done a transcript.

Part 1:

Jane Garvey: So, the next in our conversations on sex and gender. Now, last week we looked at what these two words mean, and at the tone of the current debate as well. Yesterday I talked about what the law says and the legal disagreements over the reform of the Gender Recognition Act. Today, what about schools? How well are they doing at looking after, or safeguarding, pupils who feel that their gender identity doesn't match their birth sex? We do know that increasing numbers of teenagers are experiencing gender dysphoria, so what do the current guidelines say about looking after these vulnerable young people? Layla Moran is a Lib Dem MP, welcome to the programme Layla ...

Layla Moran: Hello

JG: ...the party's spokeswoman for education and science, and a former teacher herself; and Professor Michelle Moore is an academic expert on inclusive education, and the editor of Disability and Society, and co-editor of the book, Transgender Children and Young People. Michelle, good morning to you as well.

Michelle Moore: Hi.

JG: Layla, can we start with you, what has been your personal experience of this as a subject?

LM: Sure, so when I started my career I became a head of year quite quickly, and it was at a time when the school I was in was instituting a thing that we called safe spaces, which at the time doesn't have the same sort of connotations as it does now. But the idea was that we had actually large incidences of homophob - homophobic bullying, and a case in the high school of someone who was transitioning, and we realised that actually, we needed to change the culture of the school if we were to affect the underlying safeguarding issues, which were actually about bullying and harassment in that school. I then changed schools and in fact had a trans pupil in my class, and actually the - what I'd realised was that when I first - I didn't know anyone, or at least knowingly know anyone, who was trans, until I'd become a teacher, and then I had the opportunity to find out more. And it took training, and it took conversation, and it took, you know, the whole school community to come together and try and understand - how can we best ... support them through what is often a very, very personal and very, very difficult process for them.

JG: The most important thing about this, surely, is keeping the child, and the child's needs, at the very centre ...

LM: Absolutely.

JG: ... of the conversation, and at the very centre of every decision made. Michelle, I think - I'm not going to put words into your mouth, but I think essentially, you are concerned that self-identification puts too much responsibility on some very vulnerable young minds.

MM: Absolutely, yes. I'm very concerned that not enough attention is being paid to the ways in which that's happening and the ways in which transgender ideology is actually destabilising the ordinary safeguards that protect children in schools.

JG: What exactly do you mean by that?

MM: Well, one of the things that I'm finding is that teachers and parents are coming under a great deal of pressure from transactivist organisations who are providing training in schools, never to suppress a child's expression of gender identity. And what that means is if a child says they are trans, one's supposed to accept that they are trans, with no questions asked. But what teachers and clinicians and parents that I'm working with are telling me is that the minute you ask no questions, you have immediately begun a kind of dereliction of your own safeguarding duties.

JG: Let me just put that to Layla.

LM: OK, can I firstly make a distinction between - so, safeguarding, in the sense of the responsibility of schools, is - there is no specific provision for trans pupils. There - it's about protecting all pupils against abuse, against bullying, against harassment, and if you have evidence that that's happening then there are safeguarding leads in schools and you're meant to go to them. There is a difference between that and inclusivity, and creating a space in a school, a pastoral space, and by the way in - you know the - funding cuts issues that we've got in school, the ability of teachers to have those very sensitive one-on-one conversations is something I'm deeply concerned about and that is being eroded in schools, but quite apart from that, how do you create a culture where kids can explore? And the numbers that we're talking about, in terms of children who end up questioning their identity - and it's not just about trans, it's also about, you know, someone who is non-binary, for example ...

JG: Sure ...

LM: ... that's different. Not asking questions, that's ... interesting. I think it will depend on the school ...

JG: Well I - Michelle - Michelle's point is that perhaps we have a duty as adults, as concerned adults, to ask questions - nicely, in no way in a confrontational style, but to raise points.

LM: Yeah ... well I think - I think support is that, isn't it? Support is having a conversation with someone, which will include asking them how they feel, asking them how long they've felt this way, I think what's interesting in -what I've seen of this is the spike of people, who as adults are trans, saying that they first realised that they were was actually in primary school and it's not until much later that they feel able to sort of come out and talk about it. So I really do think that there is a big difference between safeguard - the idea that just by talking about it, or letting them talk about it, that that's going to make them trans? I really worry about that rhetoric.

JG: Well that isn't quite what you're saying, is it Michelle?

MM: I didn't say that at all, did I? I think the problem here is that there's a lack of clarity about safeguarding procedures and Layla's right that there isn't any clear specification on safeguarding in relation to transgender children and young people. So what this means is that lobby groups, who've been operating in schools, have been able to suggest guidance and put in place models which lead teachers to feel that there's a kind of policy culture in which they are scared to explore with young people any other reasons for their identity distress, for fear of being labelled transphobic.

JG: Can I just ask, Michelle, obviously you speak to people in the field, you speak to concerned parents - let's say I've got children and let's say one of my children has said, within their academic environment, that they are trans. I am their mother, will I be told?

MM: No, not necessarily, and this is one of the ...

LM: You shouldn't be.

MM: ... big issues ...

JG: Well hang on Layla, I'll come back to you. Carry on Michelle.

MM: ... of concern. Yes. Safeguarding in relation to a child who makes a declaration of transgender identity in school is being handled differently in relation to concern that would be expressed around any other kind of problem. So parents are not told. Stonewall and Gendered Intelligence and other organisations are in schools, saying that if a child identifies as transgender, their right to confidentiality makes it inappropriate to involve parents. So, as we saw in the Sunday Times last week, the school can change your child's sex and re-gender your child without your knowledge and without your consent. So you could go to school, Jane, and find out your daughter is now your son. And my concern is that where schools are changing their systems to privilege the wishes of individual children and to hold children's secrets like that, this is in direct conflict with usual safeguarding policy and practice.

JG: Layla, I shouldn't be told?

LM: No.

Transcript part 2:

JG: Why not?

LM: So, can we just please make a really clear distinction between what safeguarding is. As a teacher, you escalate issues with students when you feel that there are issues of abuse, or harassment, or bullying, or that - things of that nature. If a child comes to you, let's say in a drama class or a music class, and they sit with you and they say ...

JG: And children do confide in teachers.

LM: ... and, oh they do! Oh they do, and you know, especially in those sorts of subjects, and I had it in my science class, that I'd hold for kid - you know, that personal relationship is so important, and if a child then comes to you and confesses that they've had this issue and they don't know how - who to talk to and they just ...

JG: And they haven't told their parents?

LM: ... and they haven't told anyone, and by the way, I've got a gay brother and sister. Neither of them told my parents first, they told all their friends, and the reason was at the time, it was a while ago now, they felt that my parents wouldn't understand. So they told their friends, and actually they told some select teachers. If we're saying is - is that if a trans student goes to - confesses to a teacher and is looking for that support, that it's the duty of the teacher to tell the parent, that is a dereliction of trust between the student and the parent.

JG: Michelle, Layla makes quite a compelling case there, what do you say?

MM: She does, but I don't think that parents should be denied the capacity to safeguard their own children and that if schools are withholding information that would enable them to do that, that's particularly problematic.

LM: But Michelle, can I pull you up on the word safeguarding again? Because safeguarding has got a specific ...

MM: No, I want to speak for a minute Layla actually ...

LM: ... but it's got a specific ...

MM: ... I want to talk about alienation from the family that happens when schools keep a child's secret like that. Alienation from the family means that the child then only has school and online resources to support them. It actually makes them very vulnerable in terms of grooming via social media, the advice they get online is all about affirmation only. 80% of children who at one point identify as transgender, it appears from my research, are later on changing their minds about that. In online forums where affirmation is pushed children are finding themselves on a one-way track to medical interventions for which there is no evidence base.

JG: Right, I really want to talk about that in a moment but - but Layla, just carry on with what you were trying to say.

LM: Right. Well it - I apologise Michelle, it's just that this word safeguarding, and also this word you've just used of grooming, you know those - those have specific meanings in law that - that are indeed very grave issues and it also - I come back to the point that if - if what - are you saying that you can make someone trans? Because I seriously - I'm concerned about that. If these children are indeed being groomed in some way to be trans, and then they sort of change their mind, well it didn't work did it? And I'm worried about this word safeguarding in the context of schools, I mean you know, you were talking about young people, but this is specifically about schools. What schools have to do, I think, is to prepare children for the world that they're going into, to help them grow into comfortable adults with themselves. The sorts of issues that are going through an adolescent's - and you're right Michelle to point out, you know, this is something that children can change their minds about, but creating an inclusive environment, where children feel comfortable to be able to talk about it, is surely a good thing, isn't it?

JG: There's so much we could talk about and I'm conscious of a real lack of time as ever, but I really - you mentioned drug treatment Michelle, just carry on, on that line.

MM: Yes, what happens is that once you go along with social affirmation of a child's transgender identity they very quickly, because no-one's allowed to ask questions or talk otherwise to them, find themselves on a route to medical interventions, and there is no evidence base whatsoever for safe outcomes of these medical interventions, and there's considerable concern about harms caused by these medical interventions.

JG: And some of those interventions are irreversible?

MM: Some of them are irreversible, yep, and some of them actually compound gender confusion. So if you have, for example, a child who takes puberty blockers and then goes onto hormone therapy, you can have a young transwoman who's been through that route and finds themself with the penis of their boyhood and breasts. Well, this is confusing in terms of gender, potentially.

JG: Yes, this is - I guess, isn't particularly an issue to do with schools, is it, although it happens within schools. I also want to ask you about the ...

MM: It is if schools begin this trajectory of social transition.

JM: ... Right, I get that link, absolutely ...

LM: But schools wouldn't make a medical intervention like that and, you know, I think - where - the boundary of a school would never be to suggest medical intervention or not, would it?

JG: No, no. Let's talk about the potential for a link to autism, which I know is something you have talked about Michelle - more on that.

MM: Mmm-hmm. Well, 30% of children who are going to the Tavistock Clinic, the specialist centre for these kinds of conditions ...

JG: Yes, they've been on the programme, yep.

MM: ... yeah, they are children who are on the autistic spectrum ...

JG: Now, that - you've just said 30%, where does that figure come from?

MM: Well those are the Tavistock's own figures and they're figures that are replicated in my own research that's ongoing at the moment. And there's concern here about the kinds of messages that children are getting. For example, the idea that transitioning is a cure for autism is something that's around on social media and again, that's really problematic. In my work I'm much more concerned about making sure that children are comfortable in the world that they live in and not intervening on their body, particularly when there's no evidence of safe outcomes of intervention on the body.

JG: Layla, does this concern you?

LM: Well goodness me, if - yeah, what the - I'm not aware of any causality between autism and being transgender ...

MM: There isn't any.

LM: ... indeed, and so, you know, absolutely right Michelle, I agree with you. If there is advice out there in any way, shape or form, saying that it's a cure that's ... awful. I think however to - there's almost two things here isn't there, and I think Michelle you and I probably maybe would agree, you know, that we need more resource behind supporting kids with autism, generally. The CAMHS service is a mess, it takes two years to get referrals. But the thing is you can be autistic and also transgender, those two things are separate. I was thinking about this in the context of my own experience and I've taught, actually, a number of autistic girls in particular and, you know, I was thinking why could this be and is it that - and this is simply a hypothesis and there's no evidence behind my assertion here - but could it be that they're just more upfront about how they feel about their body, and they're more likely to say 'I don't know'? But I do think we should maybe separate the two issues?

MM: Well the only thing that is necessary for a child, whether they have autism or not, to decide that they are transgender is for enough adults to agree that the child is born in the wrong body. And that is something that my research is showing is simply - is not true, that does not happen, children are not born in the wrong body ...

JG: Ok Michelle ...

MM: ... they may find their world uncomfortable, but that's a different matter.

JG: ... yes, well, that is your take and your opinion, and of course there will be people who disagree and have personal experience which leads them to suspect otherwise. Thank you both very much ...

LM: Thank you.

JG: ... and thank you both for being willing to talk to each other, which is, in this area, real progress.

LM: Unusual. Oh, with pleasure ...

JG: Michelle ...

LM: ... No, we need more of that ...

JG: ... and Layla, thank you very much. Quick statement from the Department for Education: 'All schools should provide an inclusive environment' - this is off their website actually, apologies - 'All schools should provide an inclusive environment that allows every pupil to fulfill their potential whatever their identity or background. Fundamentally we trust schools to know how best to support all their pupils.' I'm sure plenty of people out there have got a view or an experience they'd be willing to share. @BBCWomansHour on Twitter, same for Instagram of course, you can follow us there, you can email the programme whenever you like via that website - bbc.co.uk/womanshour.

This is an elected MP saying that parents should not be told if their child socially transitions at school, even though that often sets children on a trajectory towards irreversible medical treatment.

Layla Moran keeps saying things about separating the two issues, yet never properly sets out the two separate issues she means. The impression I get is that she doesn't think it's OK to mention safeguarding or grooming in the same context as children who say they are trans.

She is demonstrating the exact issue that Michelle is flagging up.

Despite Layla having a lesbian sister and a gay brother I don't get the impression she's all that comfortable with The Gays. She took a moment to decide how she wanted to pronounce homophobia, suggesting it's a word she's read more than she's said. Her voice suddenly went a bit high pitched on the word 'gay' when she was talking about her siblings' sexual orientation. She said her siblings told their friends and a few select teachers - did they tell her?

Connected to this uncomfortableness is Layla's use of the word 'confession' in relation to children questioning their gender:

if a child then comes to you and confesses that they've had this issue

if a trans student goes to - confesses to a teacher and is looking for that support

The idea that trans is something you 'confess' is far more transphobic than anything I've ever said or thought, yet I'm the bigot, apparently.

Meanwhile, Michelle's contribution to this conversation is very calm, coherent and chock full of the sort of information that many regular Woman's Hour listeners will be crying out for - how best to safeguard their own children. I wish we could have heard more about Michelle's current research.

Overall I think Jane Garvey has been brilliant in these interviews but I have to say I was a bit pissed off with this, as a response to a professor who was invited on because she's an expert in her field:

yes, well, that is your take and your opinion, and of course there will be people who disagree and have personal experience which leads them to suspect otherwise.

I look forward to the BBC making similar profound points to every other expert they invite on, on any other subject.

This is an elected MP saying that parents should not be told if their child socially transitions at school, even though that often sets children on a trajectory towards irreversible medical treatment.

If there is one thing I have learned about the education system, it is that it spits your child out at the other end and it is you who deals with the problems and bears the consequences. The state ain't no parent.

It would be lovely if they had the time and money to deal with the education problems and learning difficulties that prevent them from doing their job as effectively.

Layla Moran keeps saying things about separating the two issues, yet never properly sets out the two separate issues she means. The impression I get is that she doesn't think it's OK to mention safeguarding or grooming in the same context as children who say they are trans.

This is the distinct impression I get. She sounds like someone who has been so brainwashed by adults that her instinct is to protect the self image? perceived reputation? of those adults rather than face the fact that she's removing a group of vulnerable children from the protections other children get. How can a legislator be so ignorant of safeguarding? Only by being deliberately ignorant of it. That's the bald truth.

The idea that trans is something you 'confess' is far more transphobic than anything I've ever said or thought, yet I'm the bigot, apparently.

This, this, this!

The state ain't no parent.

Also this. We know that the state makes an incredibly poor parent, which is why we avoid state parenting wherever it is possible. This is why safeguarding is a partnership that always includes parents. The disastrous consequences of removing parental protection from a group of vulnerable children will be huge. So huge that I spend a great deal of time trying not to think about it. Otherwise I cry.

So from what LM was saying, a school can treat a girl as a boy and put her into a boys' dorm on a school trip without telling her parents.

What happens if she is sexually assaulted? Or becomes pregnant? That's down to poor safeguarding by the school. The likes of LM will go very quiet when that story breaks because it will.

We are failing our children