Women's Hour today, Michelle Moore and Layla Moran, on safeguarding

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/BBCWomansHour/status/1067347907911782400

Maybe her advisor let her down.

I doubt it, these people seem to think this whole thing is about toilets, i suspect a wider issue caught her off guard.

This is an important point and one that is increasingly standing out to me.

All our parliamentarians are at least two years behind the actual conversation that is happening. It is very concerning.

This is something that has become very apparent to me since 2015. Its not just about the trans issue, but just about every political issue I've looked at in any way. Brexit is the most glaring example of it.

There is at least a two year delay in what is spoken about on MN and what hits the newspapers and politics.

Politicians should be leading the way, not playing catch up. They should be spotting the trend and spotting the issues BEFORE they happen in a proactive manner.

The fact we lack the political foresight on so many issues, is frankly terrifying.

I doubt it, these people seem to think this whole thing is about toilets, i suspect a wider issue caught her off guard

I think she mentioned Helen Belcher as the source of her information during the parliamentary debate last week www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3429969-Watch-live-Government-debate-on-self-ID?msgid=82783359#82783359

It's not about toilets. It's about power and abuse of power.

The groups being in schools feeding propaganda to the kids is a huge issue which I don't think was driven home enough either. Although, I was distracted by toddler and Paw Patrol was on in the background while I was listening today!

I think the hollowing out of the civil service over the last 8 years of austerity is really beginning to show. Politicians are struggling to keep up with or even understand the issues in front of them. This is where good, time served and knowledgeable civil servants are actually quite useful. They are the ones who distil information and brief MP's.

Facilitating social transition in schools is one form of affirmation and potentially sets the child on a path towards medical interventions - of course parents should be told!
And what I don't understand is this: how can Layla Moran be so breezy about the whole thing - I thought she gets her information from Belcher, who is all about the suicide risk in young transgender people?

I'm not remotely surprised that any MP would come on to a BBC show to discuss an important current topic without doing any research beforehand. They do it all the time. Spouting nonsense from a position of ignorance seems to be the modus operandi of far too many of them.

And what I don't understand is this: how can Layla Moran be so breezy about the whole thing - I thought she gets her information from Belcher, who is all about the suicide risk in young transgender people?

I suspect that is all Belcher mentions when it comes to children and young people. That and how they should be allowed to use the changing rooms and toilets of the 'gender with which they identify' when they're at school.

Belcher won't have mentioned the high incidence of autistic children who think they're trans, because that knocks a hole in Belcher's argument. Belcher won't have mentioned the 80% desistance rate for the same reason. Belcher's agenda is all about getting transwomen into women's spaces, so that will be what Layla Moran has been briefed on.

LM should have done her own homework on this as preparation for WH and/or been properly briefed by an advisor who had looked at it from all angles with a more impartial view. The bias in the way she had been briefed was evident from this performance.

People really don't join up the dots do they? We've had Rotherham etc where girls were specifically groomed into leaving support / care of their families (or the care system). We've had countless Serious Case Reviews into murdered and abused children - every one of which will have called out a lack of professionals sharing information. Yet trans groups advocate both parental alienation and keeping a child's secrets and politicians smile and throw them more £££.

This is what really does my head in. It's not about trans, FFS. It's about safeguarding. You can't take any child out of safeguarding without serious consequences yet we seem perfectly happy to do it with trans children.

The fact we lack the political foresight on so many issues, is frankly terrifying.

Yes, it is.

I think the hollowing out of the civil service over the last 8 years of austerity is really beginning to show. Politicians are struggling to keep up with or even understand the issues in front of them.

I agree. And when you add in the austerity-driven hollowing-out of our other civic institutions - schools, courts, social work - you are going to do nothing else but generate crisis.

Also chase out anyone of any age from an organisation you lose a lot of memory. I remember why we have DBS checks - Ian Huntley. It seems that a lot of people don't remember that story. Not old enough or choose not to remember why we got to where we are now.

The system in which we have career politicians who largely have little to no experience of the reality of life for their electorate means they operate at a theoretical level. They don't question, they regurgitate whatever the last lobby group told them. And I agree that this has got much worse since austerity as those lobbying groups are now filling the void left by civil servants.

Maybe her advisor let her down.

Layla Moran is a Liberal Democrat. You think she has a proper advisor? Constituency assistants yes, liberal democrat advisor? They are VERY VERY thin on stuff like that. For the most part, Layla will be going on her own homework with surprising little paid support.

True red. She should have declined the invitation to talk on the basis that she has no clue what she’s talking about.

She thinks she does as "she's been on the coal face" so to speak. No idea how long though.

Sounds like one of those ‘I have a child and I know children and therefore I am entitled to pontificate’ situations.

She should have declined the invitation to talk on the basis that she has no clue what she’s talking about.

Did you see her debating with David Davies the other day? She has been advised by Helen Belcher, and seemingly no one else. She thinks she knows all there is to know, and has no idea how little she actually knows.

Again I am wondering why trans activists are given such an easy ride.

For example, when you have a LibDem on your programme to discuss anything to do with trans issues, the question should be asked:
"Why should we trust anything the LibDems have to say about trans policies when you have a person central to influencing those policies who has used twitter, while a LibDem representative, to say women's genitalia are "offputting", told a lesbian to "suck their formaldehyde pickled" male genitalia (and I'm censoring the word they actually used), and compared another lesbian to a rather foul substance that trans women experience on their genitalia after gender reassignment surgery? All of this is in the public domain and yet your party put this trans activist forward to stand to be a LibDem councillor just a few months ago, and in fact included a portrait of this trans woman on your official t shirt meant to celebrate women which you put out for sale this week. Why therefore should women trust what you have to say on these issues?"

Similar question to any Green (Challenor), Labour (Madigan), and anyone from Stonewall (Brown, Challenor, etc..) or the Guides (Fae, Challenor).

The media need to stop giving these people invitations to speak on these topics and then not asking these crucial questions about what they are actually supporting and who is setting their policies.

I’ve seen her in action. She’s very confident, and determined to talk and talk and talk for as long as she can. She’s not a listener and I’m afraid she’s just not very bright.

Did you see her on Newsnight last night? I have little time for any of the other politicians on that stage, but her determination to interrupt the ‘panel’ made her look bad even in that company.

All our parliamentarians are at least two years behind the actual conversation that is happening. It is very concerning.

This. It's frankly terrifying to realise the abysmal quality of the leadership of this country. And yet people like Anne Ruzylo are languishing in the lower echelons of the party with multiple times the talent and knowledge.

I once went to support a very important and active local community charity that were the only ones addressing a serious need in their area and urgently needed publicity and support. One of the local politicians had come along and I did my best to speak to them and emphasise what the charity did and how important/good publicity/ relevant to targets to support them. I couldn't get a word in edgewise, all she wanted to do was lecture people on her personal hobbyhorse, which incidentally was taking frequent holidays abroad photographing children with a belief that sooner or later she'd personally locate a well known missing toddler. Her constituency, talking to and learning from people in front of her, even actual relevant work towards government targets, zero interest. I was shocked. I have come to find out from more and more people I talk to, that many politicians are like this. I honestly swear we expect more and better professional competence from the average low paid teenaged worker in the local playgroup.

Again I am wondering why trans activists are given such an easy ride.

It seemed to me that Jane Garvey brought the discussion to a rather abrupt end after Layla Moran's floundering over the autism question, which gave her a very easy exit once she was shown to be out of her depth.

Michelle Moore said something about it not being possible to be born in the wrong body, Jane Garvey dismissed this as 'just her opinion' and swiftly ended the piece. I would have liked to have heard Layla Moran's response to that, as being born in the wrong body requires a belief in a gendered soul. Otherwise what is it (or who is it), exactly, that has been born in the wrong body?

The hoc debate showed that the pro self Id MPs didn't know anything except things trans activists had told them, which they took to be completely true. Davies only knew what fpfw etc had told him, which to my mind gets nearer the truth but is working from a different starting point to the tra pov. But as both sides don't speak to each other (not for the want of trying from one side!) neither could properly respond to the others points, only reiterate the party line. The same happened on wh. LM couldn't respond the the autism issue. Mm didn't respond to the q do you the think people can be made trans? The answer would depend on what LM and mm mean by trans. Proper repeated discussions between the two points of view are really necessary and hopefully it is finally happening.

It's also occurred to me that actually, there was no actual nitty gritty safeguarding discussed in the programme. Eg what happens on school residentials etc.

I think the hollowing out of the civil service over the last 8 years of austerity is really beginning to show

Also David Cameron's 'Big Society' where previous govt. work has been farmed out to the voluntary sector.