Liberal feminist?

[Crookedcolours]

Hi everyone

Long time lurker on mn but very vocal with friends and family re feminism and do what I can with regards to petitions, emails, complaints, surveys that kind of thing.

So go back quite a few years in sociology we were told radical feminists believed the only way to achieve true equality was to reform the entire structure of power, government, laws etc. And that was the difference between radical and liberal.

Because of this reason I've always 'identified' as a liberal feminist believing it can be done within the current framework.

But I've noticed over the years scarcely anyone describing themselves as a liberal feminist. And within feminist forums liberal feminists seem to be looked down upon or a dirty word, whereas on social media as we know radical feminists is a term that's practically been vilified.

This second point annoys me because as I like to point out, the definition is relatively simple and there's nothing crazy about it like you'd assume from the hatred.

I want to know your thoughts on this.

Do you 'identify' as radical or liberal?
What are your views on liberal feminists and is my definition correct?

I suppose I identify as liberal. I’d love to dismantle the patriarchy and gendered expectations but don’t think that’s anymore realistic than dismantling capitalism. These systems are pretty entrenched the world over. I think we should focus on working within the existing systems to ameliorate their worst excesses.

I don't find either word or concept particularly useful. Some things can be done within the current framework, some can't.

The terms seem to have changed meaning to make them even less useful.

I get the impression with the transgender discussions, "liberal" feminism has come to mean not liberal politics but being "liberal" about who you consider to be women i.e. TWAW. I'd barely describe myself as feminist let alone radical, I'm very pro equality and anti sexism but not up on all the theory and reluctant to join any club that doesn't allow male members too. But TWAW is over the line of liberality and into the territory of illogicality for me. So while I'd describe myself as a liberal and (just about) a feminist, I don't think the current connotations of "liberal feminist" would fit.

There are probably way more liberal feminists than radical feminists. They are just less likely to label themselves. And less likely to spend their spare time posting on forums about feminism.

So do you think it's outdated now to define between liberal and radical feminism?

I don't think it's helpful how the term radical feminist is being used as an automatic shutdown almost like you'd see fascist or bigot used.

But obviously that's the aim of those who use it that way.

Whys that black forest?

Because as I said by the definitions I know, a liberal feminist wouldn't be any less interesting in reading and discussion women's rights and activism, they just have a different concept of what the method is.

As a liberal feminist (I think) I am very much gender critical

I think it is a spectrum like a lot of other movements.

For example my sociology teacher was a man and called himself a feminist. I'm a feminist and I think men can be feminists in the sense of allies.

I dunno, I was a reluctant feminist until this came up.

I'm still reluctant really. I think feminism is only one way of analysing the world. But once you have looked through a feminist lens, it's an analysis you can't forget. I'm probably still reluctant but bloody real life keeps pointing out to me that it's still relevant.

Is not the core of feminism simply equal rights for women? Not all feminists ive encountered refer to the patriarchy

I have read feminist literature as a teen in the 80‘s and 90‘s. 2nd wave feminism. During that time the whole ‚sex positive - prostitution can be sooo liberating‘ movement entered the main stream. Which I always knew was crap. When all those prostitutes flooding the market come from dirt poor Eastern European countries, how free is that choice?
And this is what liberal feminism boils down to. Making ourselves a bit more comfy in our own oppression, shitting on the women who said oppression crushes, because their class does not isolate them from the worst excesses.

So, no, I have not much respect for ‚liberal feminism‘ and I challenge the notion that it is feminism at all.

I'm a feminist and I think men can be feminists in the sense of allies.

Whereas we radical feminists tend to say men can be allies, but not feminists, as they are members of the oppressing class.

You’ll find many men will argue about this, proving why anyone who seeks to deny women the right to define the tools to fight their own oppression isn’t a feminist.

Feminists are like explorers in a jungle of ignorance and sexism, looking for the golden city of equality and justice.

Liberal feminists confront the dangers of the jungle alone. They may falter, they may fall, but with every step they blaze a trail that leads closer to the city.

Radical feminists huddle around a campfire, telling each other how they would totally be the best explorers ever, they'd be huge, they'd totally find the golden city, if only everyone would do as they say, drop everything, and stamped the jungle flat for them first.

No, Mephistopheles, Feminism is about freeing the city from a crushing Occupation, and share the city with its inhabitants, equally, instead of suffering in the wilderness. And while liberal feminists tell the occupiers that they won‘t fight them, if only they individually can sneak into the city and get a comfy home there, ‚l‘ll give up all my weapons and you can supervise me 24/7 just let me in, who cares about the others‘, radical feminists are determined to free the city together, repeatedly storm it, at times make some tiny gains - and leave no one behind.

I'm a feminist I probably lean in the direction of radical feminism, and was probably more liberal in my twenties.

It makes me angry that either are seen as a dirty word by other feminists though. Whatever kind of feminism you do, women are not the problem. Feminist don't murder people. They don't rape women.

Radfems aren't angry TERF bigot robot killers and libfems aren't handmaidens to the patriarchy who want nothing but to wank off their fellow woke bros. Different angles but same objective. I also think a lot of people start with liberal feminism, so it's not wise to make them feel bad about it or put them off different forms.

Case in point: Prostitution. The Nordic model, which criminalizes buying sex (not selling it) was conceptualized and won by radical feminism. The German model of ‚sex work is work‘ was won by pimps, with eager help from liberal feminists.

Feminist don't murder people. They don't rape women.

I should probably specify that I'm one of those feminists who don't think men can be feminists so I stand by the above assertion.

I don't find either word or concept particularly useful. Some things can be done within the current framework, some can't.

The terms seem to have changed meaning to make them even less useful

Agree with both points.

as we know radical feminists is a term that's practically been vilified

6 posts in and your points been proved

I dunno where i fall as i agree with errol

I always thought i was just a feminist but from what ive read i would probably come down on the side of society needing a massive change so more radical, though i do appreciate that somethings are probably going to be impossible to change completely

I woukd appreciate a debate on actual views of liberal and radical feminism such as cats and deeps which i think would be helpful, rather than the digs that we are already seeing on your thread

I’ve been through the journey. In my teens and early 20s I didn’t consider myself a feminist at all. I was utter blind and naive on the whole front. Late 20s and early 30s I became more aware of feminist issues and would have definitely viewed myself as a liberal feminist. Late 30s, I had 2 daughters, opened my eyes to the massive inequality that women face and then along came the whole self ID debacle and the scales fell. I’m getting more and more radical by the day and am amazed I didn’t see it when i was younger. I don’t think my journey is too unusual. I will be bringing up my daughters up with way more awareness of the world then I ever had.

Oh yes and i agree with man just above me, dont remember who she is quoting but i agrre with both the points

I would have described myself as a liberal feminist a few years back, but without really thinking about it. I'd guess because I've always been a leftie liberal sounded right. I also really appreciated the way the lib feminists called out slut shaming.
However, in the last year or so, I've seen some really awful ageism, regressive stereotyping and lesbophobia coming out of the liberal feminist movement mostly as part its general alignment with the trans movement.
It's made me think more deeply about the roots of sexism and realise how thoroughly entrenched misogyny is in society.
My beliefs about womanhood are a lot more aligned with the radical than the liberal than I realised.

Radfems aren't angry TERF bigot robot killers and libfems aren't handmaidens to the patriarchy who want nothing but to wank off their fellow woke bros. Different angles but same objective. I also think a lot of people start with liberal feminism, so it's not wise to make them feel bad about it or put them off different forms.

This is a bloody good point.

Even during the Speaker Corner incident, I think it was actually one of the women on the other side who stepped in to stop the TRA attack.

Going back to something the OP said upthread:
Is not the core of feminism simply equal rights for women? Not all feminists ive encountered refer to the patriarchy

Unfortunately, 'equal rights' aren't enough to ensure women actually experience equality. They're just the first, necessary step. This country has, in law, 'equal rights'. But women still don't experience equality with men.

Some of this is because of 'patriarchy' but a lot is 'structural sexism' rooted in biology...the simplest example being that women still suffer from the unspoken 'hm, yes but she might get pregnant but he won't' when she's on the shortlist for a job.

Then you can consider rights versus responsibilities. Do men (in general) take equal responsibility for childcare? For looking after elderly parents? For housework? The fact that there are are men who are exceptions to this shows it's possible.