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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liberal feminist?

54 replies

Crookedcolours · 22/11/2018 23:30

Hi everyone

Long time lurker on mn but very vocal with friends and family re feminism and do what I can with regards to petitions, emails, complaints, surveys that kind of thing.

So go back quite a few years in sociology we were told radical feminists believed the only way to achieve true equality was to reform the entire structure of power, government, laws etc. And that was the difference between radical and liberal.

Because of this reason I've always 'identified' as a liberal feminist believing it can be done within the current framework.

But I've noticed over the years scarcely anyone describing themselves as a liberal feminist. And within feminist forums liberal feminists seem to be looked down upon or a dirty word, whereas on social media as we know radical feminists is a term that's practically been vilified.

This second point annoys me because as I like to point out, the definition is relatively simple and there's nothing crazy about it like you'd assume from the hatred.

I want to know your thoughts on this.

Do you 'identify' as radical or liberal?
What are your views on liberal feminists and is my definition correct?

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 23/11/2018 09:33

Parity of rights is all very well, but unfortunately, because we are talking about upsetting a status quo, and therefore there is no great appetite to go beyond surface level stuff, it becomes counterproductive.

So you get this argument spring up "Well, you've got equal rights now, what are you still complaining about?" and then before too long, maybe when some of those rights help women achieve or expose something, it becomes "Have women's rights gone too far?"

Then you start seeing a pushback - sometimes bluntly and openly, other times with a bit more subterfuge as in the trans wedge.

All that is achieved by focusing solely on the goal of equal rights is moving deckchairs on the Titanic. As much as it's a daunting prospect to challenge an entire system of oppression, it is the only way to actually move forward.

And yes, women working together is vital to the success of the endeavour. Which is probably why the tension exists between the lib fems and the rad fems, because there is a touch of the divide and conquer about it.

ManHatingfeministType · 23/11/2018 10:02

I imagine liberal feminism actually pushes women towards radical feminism because it forces women to engage with male feminists Grin

Think about all the women who had to deal with that "male feminist" who was then ousted for being a creep only to have him then come out as transgender?

deepwatersolo · 23/11/2018 10:28

I imagine liberal feminism actually pushes women towards radical feminism because it forces women to engage with male feminists.

Grin Grin Grin

I will say that I honestly did not distinguish 'radical' and 'liberal' until recently. For me it was feminism (applying the logic I had learned as a teen from 2nd wave feminism) and bullshit - stuff where I thought 'come on, that feels counterproductive. That's not in women's interest'.

So I guess that there will be a lot of overlap in 'liberal' and 'radical' feminism but there are some focal points where they differ: like prostitution (Nordic versus German model) and the transgender issue, where liberal feminism may focus on personal freedom to self-identify and insist that transwomen can't be held responsible for Karen White, therefore, open women's prisons to transwomen! - while radical feminists will reject that due to class analysis, which finds society shaping male pattern violence and socialization - so why let male pattern violence into women's spaces?

Maybe it makes sense for women to just be feminists and judge each contentious issue between radical and liberal feminism for themselves, and then decide whether they more align with the 'liberal' or 'radical' feminist view on the respective issue.

Ereshkigal · 23/11/2018 10:32

Think about all the women who had to deal with that "male feminist" who was then ousted for being a creep only to have him then come out as transgender?

Oh yes. Bet they didn't have a gold lamé pocketbook though.

SkullPointerException · 23/11/2018 10:51

It's complicated, isn't it?

I believe I fall somewhere on the liberal end of radical feminism philosophically speaking, but I'm most definitely a libfem in a practical sense, in that all my personal, direct contributions to the cause have been geared towards improving things for women and girls given the status quo as opposed to challenging the very fundamental structures.

I do feel a tad of feminist guilt at times for, e.g. focussing on helping women succeed within corporate structures that, IMHO, are really inherently patriarchal instead of trying to change the entire system. However, to me it's a question of what I can and can't do. Getting good women promoted is something I have influence over as a female executive. Forbidding the professional services tradition of taking clients to strip clubs is something I can impose within my own area of responsibility. Changing the entire business model, which is what IMO would be required to move towards a more radfem ideal: not only do I lack that amount of influence, I'd most probably put myself out of a job for trying, too.

It's probably easier for me to reconcile than if my own options for making an impact were thematically closer to some of the core areas of disagreement.

FermatsTheorem · 23/11/2018 11:40

My position is that radical feminism is brilliant for analysis of what's wrong, and shifting the overton window, but liberal feminism is more likely to achieve things in practice (even if it doesn't achieve as much as one might like it to).

But one thing I think doesn't get talked about enough is the fact that pro-trans, pro-prostitution "liberal feminism" is in fact a complete bastardisation of classical liberal political philosophy, and has much more in common with a hyper-individualist libertarianism than it does with liberalism. Classical liberal theory, from Mills all the way through to Rawls, is about balancing individual freedoms against one another, and the needs of individual actors, and producing fair rules for dealing with conflicting needs, wants, rights. Whether it's by "maximising utility", or "rule utilitarianism" or Rawl's "initial position", there's a recognition that not everyone gets everything they want, and it's about maximising freedom and fair allocation of resources, not about some impossible "everyone gets exactly what they want" free for all.

So it's quite consistent to be a liberal and against legalised prostitution (after all, most liberals are already against legalising selling kidneys). I think the argument goes like this:

"Okay, we're in the empty room of Rawl's initial position, discussing what sort of society we want to set up, in ignorance of where in that society we're going to end up. We know that some people will be poorer than others, and that poverty can drive you to do things you really don't want to because, put simply, you need to eat, and so do your children. We know that women are physically weaker on the whole and therefore more likely to end up on the receiving end of physical violence. We know they're the ones who gestate and breast feed, and are thus vulnerable, and taken out of the story as full economic members of society, for those times in their life. Therefore we need to have a social safety net - welfare payments, maternity pay, housing. And we also need to rule out certain economic activities - selling kidneys, bare-knuckle boxing, consenting to being beaten up for other people's entertainment, prostitution, being a paid gestational surrogate - because society as a whole does not need them, and the only people who'll be prepared to do them are people who are financially desperate, and we should be finding other ways to help them."

That's a classical liberal position that's anti prostitution.

We need to rescue liberalism from the libertarians who throw around insults like "TERF" and "SWERF". (They remind me of the lovely Ash and their deeply relaxed "Marxism" which embraces free market economics...)

hellandhairnets · 23/11/2018 11:43

I think there is a lot of overlap. It sometimes bugs me when I see radfems focusing on railing at so-called libfems for not being "pure" enough (although if said libfem completely refutes fundamentals of feminist analysis and moans about "those nasty radfems" using the same tired old stereotypes as the likes of Jim Davidson et al, it is hard to see why she is calling herself feminist at all).

Technically, I lean more towards the radfem, learning a lot about the 2nd wave in the 80s and I find as I get older I return to the analysis more and more. I came of age, I suppose, just before queer theory & pomo took over but at a time when some aspects of class analysis were being questioned, and issues of female sexual autonomy and freedom came to the fore.

Fundamentally, it's less about which "tribe" of feminists one belongs to though - feminism's not an "identity" for me. I am interested in material realities, fairness, and people's lives and freedoms on the ground. I tend to see things in terms of systems and power dynamics - which may change over time - and which impact different groups in society in different ways.(I guess that makes me "intersectional" in the sense it was originally meant.) Your biological sex has an impact on your realities because - well, patriarchy. And so do other aspects, like your ethnicity and your social class.

My belief is that everyone in society should be able to advocate for themselves, along with others who share similar experiences. Allyship between different groups is one thing - but identifying into another demographic group and trying to change that group's definitions of their own realities and experiences is just wrong. It prevents people having the right to advocate for themselves and takes away their voice. And that is what's happening at the moment with TRAs.

hackmum · 23/11/2018 11:53

I agree with Germaine Greer that feminism should not be about equal rights, but about the liberation of women. That to me makes perfect sense. Women's lives are necessarily different from men because of biology - if you insist that women have "equal rights" to job, promotion and pay opportunities, then your'e still stuck with the problem that women will generally end up looking after children and fall further down the career ladder. You also end up becoming obsessed with issues like getting more women into engineering rather than nursing, rather than asking why female-dominated professions such as nursing are so badly-paid. And an equal rights approach doesn't even begin to address the problem of male violence against women or the way female victims are treated by the courts.

But liberating women from male oppression, so that we are not dependent on men financially, or not continually frightened of male violence, or not continually obsessed with what men think of us - that is what feminism should be about.

RatRolyPoly · 23/11/2018 12:37

I'm a liberal feminist, but I agree with a lot of radical feminists assessments and ideals; I just think that anything that can be achieved in the name of feminism can't be at too great a curtailment of the personal liberties of the very women we're seeking to liberate.

For me, the personal liberties of women are at the heart of my feminism, and whilst the landscape might be better for women in general if radical ideals were enacted overnight, the price in terms of women's liberty would be too high. So the actions I believe should be liberal in that they work within the current system, but what we achieve can - in time - be the radical vision.

I'd say I was a third wave feminist at heart; that's the era of feminism I grew up with and I think it's a good fit for my outlook and opinions.

I found this article an interesting read about the different waves.

EarlyWalker · 23/11/2018 12:44

I believe radical feminists used to be referred to as being ‘victim feminists’ and liberal as ‘power feminists’ (obviously only by the liberals)
There was much discussion that by radical feminists painting all woman as a victim, it actually hindered woman from being able to reach their full potential as they were forever being classed and told they were the weaker sex that needed protecting as opposed to empowering.
Liberal feminism was about enlightening those woman and fighting for them to achieve the best they can be, and fighting against anything that May hinder them.

The definitions are obviously slightly different these days (and it’s very clear which side MN falls on!) but I’m definitely liberal.

Efferlunt · 23/11/2018 12:46

Non of this stuff lends itself to easy divisions does it? I’m really not keen on legal brothels but totally believe men can be feminist and other are as much a victim of the patriarchy as we are. I guess you just have to muddle through

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 23/11/2018 12:47

The victim/power feminist thing was the thrust of Naomi Wolf's (terrible) book Fire With Fire. I don't know how much traction it got elsewhere?

RatRolyPoly · 23/11/2018 12:53

The victim/power feminist thing was the thrust of Naomi Wolf's (terrible) book Fire With Fire. I don't know how much traction it got elsewhere?

I haven't read the book, but I do find myself frequently debating with self-identified radical feminists who seem to have a fundamentally different vision of women's strength or vulnerability to my own. It can be deeply confusing for someone who genuinely believes women to be stronger than society allows them to be, conversing with feminists who believe women are more vulnerable than society acknowledges they are.

My perspective is that women would be equally as powerful if the structures of society supported it, hence addressing those issues within the system (liberal feminism).

EarlyWalker · 23/11/2018 12:54

I’ve not read the book but I’ve heard the power/victim discussions many times.

angelwithalariat · 23/11/2018 12:55

I think of myself as merely a 'not a doormat' feminist, based on the Rebecca West quote. 'I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.'
I'm not the feminist who runs the shelter or the helpline, sits on the committee in parliament to change the law. I admire them, but I'm just rank and file.

deepwatersolo · 23/11/2018 12:56

I believe radical feminists used to be referred to as being ‘victim feminists’ and liberal as ‘power feminists’

Yeah, I remember the magazine articles that grew out of that era - droning on endlessly about the power women actually have over men... as escorts, dominas or just vamps playing with the power of sex. Wink

deepwatersolo · 23/11/2018 12:59

My perspective is that women would be equally as powerful if the structures of society supported it, hence addressing those issues within the system (liberal feminism).

But why would it make sense to accept and support a system that has structures that do not allow women to be as powerful as they could be?

angelwithalariat · 23/11/2018 13:01

Also, can someone explain the patriarchy for me? I can see if you're living in Afghanistan or Ancient Greece, you're living in a patriarchy. But when we have the level of rights and freedoms that we do now, are we still in a patriarchy? Or is the patriarchy an ideology within our society and that is what we are fighting against?

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/11/2018 13:16

I am a Liberal Feminist. Liberal feminism is a broad church. There is no single Libfem view on prostitution or trans.

Bowlofbabelfish · 23/11/2018 13:23

Is not the core of feminism simply equal rights for women?

Yes and no. It’s about LIBERATION from the structures we have now, not equality within them, because they’re structures set up to benefit men.

Yes we still live a patriarchal society. Read these threads for a flavour of how this translates to women facilitating men to their own detriment www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3082251-Men-whose-lives-are-facilitated-by-women-how-did-this-happen

The recent rape case in Ireland where the poor girl’s attacker got off because she was wearing a lace thong? That’s the symptom of a society set up to prioritise men and their sexual desires above the safety of women and children.

A million other examples exist - a quick look at the news will show you that

EarlyWalker · 23/11/2018 13:26

That rape case made me so angry. Can you imagine a mans fancy boxers being held up as evidence he was up for it.
I think in terms of rights, men and woman are equal now. In terms of individual attitudes, there’s still a long way to go.

ManHatingfeministType · 23/11/2018 13:29

My perspective is that women would be equally as powerful if the structures of society supported it, hence addressing those issues within the system (liberal feminism).

I think everyone would agree with that? I think the radical view might just be that you're not going to ever get that with a structure built by patriarchy.

Also, can someone explain the patriarchy for me?

If you don't get some clever answers to that I'll respond with my take after lunch!

MagicMix · 23/11/2018 13:29

My position is that radical feminism is brilliant for analysis of what's wrong, and shifting the overton window, but liberal feminism is more likely to achieve things in practice (even if it doesn't achieve as much as one might like it to).

This seems fair to me.

I don't really 'identify' as either liberal or radical - I enjoy and agree with aspects of both and there is clearly a huge amount of overlap anyway.

The problem is not exactly 'liberal feminism'. It's a certain strain of feminism which is not really feminism at all. The strand of feminism that is 'sex-positive' and 'inclusive' of men is feminism that has simply been hijacked by male interests. Turns out a really effective way to derail the women's liberation movement was to think about what you want women to do and redefine feminism to just mean that. All those nasty feminists trying to ruin your fun by pointing out how horrific prostitution is? No problem, just rebrand prostitution and now it's feminist sex work.

We've seen that if you waffle on about agency and choice long enough and you can gaslight a lot of women into intellectually defending porn and prostitution and arguing that looking sexy for the male gaze is an empowering free choice that a woman can make. They really have played a blinder. Getting women to collaborate in their own oppression has always been a strong point of the patriarchy, but these days many women collaborate in the strong belief that they are actually part of the resistance.

Bowlofbabelfish · 23/11/2018 13:33

Liberal feminism was about enlightening those woman and fighting for them to achieve the best they can be,

Mmmm..,. The problem with that is that the real world outcome is all this ‘posing in your knickers is empowering’ stuff.

And maybe some women find it to be so. But it’s not a message aimed at men is it? We don’t see men queuing up to be objectified. The ‘are the men wanting to do it?’ Test is a good one.

I identify more with the radical side of things. Radical, by the way, is from the Latin for root, not the way radical is used as ‘extreme’ these days.

Radical feminism for me is to acknowledge that the root of why women are oppressed is their biology. That’s the basis.

I think there is a place for liberal feminism as in ‘fight within the system’ AND radical feminism (change the system) - we can want a more extreme change while still acknowledging that we live in the world and sometimes small compromise steps get you further. The two are not in theory incompatible.

Of course, pitting women against each other by shoving a wedge in any little difference and hammering it is a valuable tool for anyone who doesn’t like women much. Otherwise we might all talk to each other. Unite even. Can you imagine?

Best to keep at each other’s throats over terminology and ignore real threats

Bowlofbabelfish · 23/11/2018 13:37

I think in terms of rights, men and woman are equal now.

Maybe. What’s on the statute books and what happens in real life in terms of rights aren’t always the same. I doubt many male victims of rape have their underwear shown to court as proof they were ‘up for it.’

We can share parental leave- are we? Nope.

I’d be interested in what anyone in here with a good grasp of law thinks about men and women having equal rights in law. Is that the case?

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