Prof Stock on Woman's Hour today

[Bittermints]

Is this the week they're doing a lot of stuff on gender? Anyway, saw a tweet earlier from Professor Stock that she is on WH this morning. Don't know what time. Should be worth a listen. She is so clear and cogent.

My Mum loves WH.
Bet she was scratching her head today.
was that intended as ageist as it comes across?
I'm in my 60s, and I think a large proportion of the fightback on this has come from women of my age.

For about a minute - then I decided, what the hell. I think I’m going to be Lord Fekko next. Or admiral.

Lisa Muggeridge comments:

'Sally Hines: an example of frightened academia.'

'Sally Hines and the barrier she represents: Intersectionality.'

soz, not Harrop, Dr Christian

Easily confused need.

lucydogz
Apologies if it seems ageist, not intended that way at all!
I meant the terminology used (as in my earlier post re Hines not making any sense).
I'm not so young myself and my Mum is close to 80, 6 kids and a pretty pragmatic view of the world.
We've had long discussions about the whole trans self id situation. She's written to her MP about it and was angry and annoyed by the response - not a word in plain language.
I think it's a massive barrier for quite a lot of us. We know what we believe but the meaning of words is constantly being hijacked and manipulated.
Sorry if initial post didn't make that clear.

How about PM Fekko?

Not even if it was gold plated!

I was looking at Sally Hines's Twitter feed, and it's fascinating to see all her supporters talking about the "abuse" she's received and the "toxic" nature of her critics' comments. Do they really believe that the robust criticism she's received is worth than the death threats, rape threats, name-calling, physical abuse, doxxing and trying to get women sacked that's happened to people on our side? I mean, how on earth do they justify that to themselves? Are they very very stupid? Somehow managing to miss that it's going on? Or do they believe themselves so covered in virtue that when they swear at people and threaten to kill them, it's OK?

sorry 3wheeler
Though I did think Jane Garvey worked very hard to cut out the jargon, several times.

Professor Alex Sharpe

"Yet, Biol sex is a soc construct, not in the sense of denying physical reality (genitals, gonads ... ), but in sense that knowledge about the body is gained through language & because a binary understanding of sex not strictly scientific. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

www.keele.ac.uk/law/people/academicstaff/alexsharpe/

What Sharpe is saying is pretty much the butler view of sex. It's very influential on the humanities. I thought that Hines was going to say that on WH but she didn't really. To take the butler view, you have start from the position that all experience (not just all knowledge) is constructed through language.
To me, although all concepts are created to some degree through the language and culture we live in (they always say 'mediated') it's blinkin obvious that some concepts are describing things which are material and just are. People are still animals and would know who to shag even if we didn't classify ourselves as two separate sexes, but say, on a sliding scale of male-ness to female-ness. There are still two reproductive types even though other aspects of sexual difference are not all binary.
It's so harmful to throw out the old assumption that the two sexes has led to the two genders. The butler view (which sharpe mentions) puts it the other way around - that the social roles of men and women were so ingrained, it caused us to invent the binary sex classification to back them up. It’s counter intuitive. And it's not good for women.

Apologies for the slight derail but some of the Professors and Drs are in fine form today.
Its all about sex and gender though.

I just listened and agree that a lot of it would be incomprehensible to most people. Nothing to do with age, just the amount of jargon and obscure concepts that your average listener would never have come across before.

To take the butler view, you have start from the position that all experience (not just all knowledge) is constructed through language.

My undergraduate English Language and Literature degree enables me to understand and position Butler appropriately.

Biologyfemini
Really where are the biologists in this?
I really wanted to know that too. But then the 1600 signature letter came out (signed by hundreds of biologists) which gave fuel to the 'sex is a spectrum, and therefore binary sex is a construct' fire.

Rowantrees- as in position it at the bottom of the pile marked 'thank god I never have to read that again'

Biology is now defunct?

Tell that to the urologists.

Sally and Lisa M absolutely loathe one another. And Sally isn't trans. She's Barry Hines' daughter - he wrote A Kestrel for a Knave which became the Ken Loach film Kes.

No one, but no one takes Alex Sharpe seriously.

Blimey! I hadn't made that connection.

lucydogz
You're right, JG did an excellent job. I was pleased with the way she handled whole thing. You never know what to expect now, there have been so many of these short debates skewed in favour of the TRAs.

The language thing is a bugbear of mine. I used to see it in social work with the service users - some professionals would use such complex language in meetings and reports it prevented people from even understanding what was being said about them.
I feel the same thing happens from the TRAs. The debate escalates so fast and the terminology they use is so unfamiliar, it's almost designed to give you no time to question it.
Add to that the threat of being seen as transphobe or a bigot if you question any aspect of the new science, and you've got a lot of people too intimidated to speak.

I'm so proud of my Mum though, she's got more and more outspoken as she gets older. She's spent a lot of time in hospital for gynae issues and ended up on a mixed ward once, which was bloody unpleasant. But it prompted her to get involved with all this so she's a bit of an inspiration.

LordFekko
Please be a Pope next so we can genuflect.

No one, but no one takes Alex Sharpe seriously.

Sharpe, "has been cited judicially by the European Court of Human Rights and by a series of other courts in domestic jurisdictions. She sits on the International Legal Committee of the World Professional Association of Transgender Health (WPATH). This committee makes law reform interventions in transgender litigation worldwide by way of amicus briefs. She also sits on Amnesty International's Expert Committee on the Criminalisation of Sexual and Reproductive Conduct"

She's Barry Hines' daughter - he wrote A Kestrel for a Knave

I loved that book!