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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paris Green

71 replies

SarahJane73 · 19/11/2018 00:38

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/transgender-murderer-paris-green-to-have-reassignment-surgery-on-nhs-hl80fnl7k

"Green began her sentence at Cornton Vale women’s prison in Stirling but was moved after reports that she had had sex with other prisoners in her cell. She is now held in a women’s wing at Edinburgh prison."

Eh? How does that solve the problem?

OP posts:
PygmyHippoBob · 19/11/2018 21:11

I am sufficiently angry about this that I have emailed the CEO of Women in Prison:

__

Dear Kate,

I despaired when I read Women in Prison's response to the Paris Green story:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/19/trans-murderer-serving-life-will-receive-80k-gender-reassignment/

Your charity apparently thinks the feelings of a male murderer are more important than the actual physical safety of female prisoners. How many inmates have to be sexually assaulted by men before you will speak up? What about Karen White's victims?

When volunteering at HMP Pentonville I came across a few men who were hoping to transfer to a women's prison. These men were so much more creepy than the other prisoners. I felt uncomfortable being near them in a crowded room. I can't imagine what it would be like to be locked in a cell with one of them.

If a charity called 'Women in Prison' won't speak up for female prisoners, frankly why does it exist?

Yours disappointedly

[name]

NottonightJosepheen · 19/11/2018 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PygmyHippoBob · 19/11/2018 22:34

The CEO of Women in Prison has responded impressively quickly:

Dear [name],

Thank you for your email. We don't comment on individual cases and the press article you sent has quoted from a detailed statement we issued recently. I include this below. When you have had a chance to read it I am happy to organise a call with you to discuss.

Best wishes,

Kate

Statement from Women in Prison (12.10.18)

Transgender people, prisons and women’s spaces

Recently, there has been a stronger public focus on a small number of cases of trans women in women’s prisons. This statement responds to the broader issue of transgender women and men in the prison system, particularly women’s prisons, and community-based women’s spaces.

Women in Prison (WIP) is a feminist campaigning charity that also provides services supporting women affected by the criminal justice system, many of whom have experienced male violence. It campaigns to expose the injustice and harm caused to women, families and communities by imprisonment and to radically reduce the number of women in prison. Harm resulting from, and exacerbated by, imprisonment includes death, self-harm, trauma, mental ill health, homelessness, unemployment and damage to children when their primary carer is in prison. The vast majority of women are imprisoned for non-violent offences that attract short sentences, and because of a lack of appropriate support on release, there is a high rate of re-offending. All of this provides overwhelming proof of a broken system.

For thirty five years, one of the main purposes of Women in Prison (WIP) has been to offer support to women, trans women and trans men, in women’s prisons, in the community and, for the past decade, in women’s centres, in order that they be best equipped to rebuild their lives. As far as resources allow, we will continue to do this.

WIP respects the right of any individual to transition. Drawing on our experience in providing support, we recognise the significant difficulties that this often involves. We support the right of transgender people to access services that meet their needs.

Our priority is the safety and wellbeing of all those with whom we are working. HM Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) have a duty to maintain a safe environment for every person in prison. WIP supports the continued scrutiny of requests by transgender individuals to move to a women’s or men’s prison. WIP’s concern is that rigorous and transparent risk assessment that explores the background, motivation and potential risks to the individual and to others, is not being consistently conducted and monitored.

Risk assessment must include the individual’s stage of transition; their particular needs; any history of sexual exploitation, violence or abuse; evidence of motivation to exploit, control and/or manipulate others (including coercive control); and risk to the individual or others of consensual sexual activity, pregnancy or sexual assault. This assessment also needs to include transition plans before prison, future intentions after serving their sentence, and any risk to, or impact on the individual, and to others, of moving prison and of not being moved.

Any failure of the risk assessment process can have life threatening consequences and impact on the safety, sense of security, wellbeing, mental health and daily lives of all individuals in prison, including transgender people. We recognise that decisions not to place an individual in the prison of the gender with which they identify can relate to the risk to that person, and/or a risk to others. As this is an area that requires careful balancing of rights, with prioritising safety, a sense of security and the prevention of harm, it may require innovation in provision within the prison system.

The Government must now take action to ensure that thorough risk assessments are taking place and to provide alternative facilities if it is decided that the placement of a trans woman or trans man is not appropriate in the prison of their self identified gender. Such alternative facilities would need to take account of the particular needs of trans people, including for access to specialist services.

WIP is pleased that the government has confirmed that there are no plans to amend the Equality Act that allows the provision of single sex women’s services. Justification for these provisions includes a woman’s right to privacy and dignity and the ability of organisations to provide the most effective services (including women only spaces). Provision of women only spaces are necessary for a range of reasons, including the impact of the trauma of male violence and sexual exploitation, and because some services do not meet women’s specific needs. In fact, Women in Prison was established because our founders recognised that a criminal justice system dominated by men’s offending meant that women’s needs and experiences were often invisible.

The exemptions in the Equality Act enable case-by-case decisions to be made in relation to the access of transgender individuals to women specific spaces. The government must ensure that these vital legal protections continue and that guidance is adequate to enable service providers to make decisions that balance the rights of individuals without opening services to risk of legal challenge. We hope that the government’s response to the current consultation on the Gender Recognition Act takes account of this important issue.

WIP, like other organisations working in the field of penal reform and in the women’s sector, is facing an acute financial crisis, as resources shrink, demand increases and the needs of those we support become more complex. If the government is serious about tackling the crisis in prisons, then appropriate investment is required in the women’s sector so that the prison population is reduced, the cycle of re-offending is broken and all women have a genuine opportunity to rebuild their lives. Only this will ensure the ability to manage the safety and wellbeing, and balance the rights, of all those caught up in the criminal justice system.

Women in Prison does not comment on individual cases.

PygmyHippoBob · 19/11/2018 22:40

The crux of it seems to be that WIP believe more thorough risk assessments will protect female inmates. However, if, as WIP suggest, the risk assessment include the male prisoner's prediliction for violence and ability to impregnate female prisoners, shouldn't that mean that any intact male convicted of a violent or sexual offence is prevented from going into a women's prison? Which would include virtually all of the males wanting to get into women's prisons? In which case why don't we just segregate by sex, thus avoiding the need for a risk assessment in the first place?

Serfisafleur · 19/11/2018 22:58

WIP would never be able to advocate for same-sex provision because they are dependent on government grants, they would be closed down for being "transphobic" at the mere mention of retaining same-sex provision.
They are advocating a case-by-case risk assessment procedure which is already in place and which is evidently already doomed to fail women.

NotTerfNorCis · 19/11/2018 23:19

I'm thinking that unless a man has full surgery and hormone treatment, he should not be described as 'she'. If he's been through the whole process then it's reasonable and compassionate to describe him as she, but it has to be made clear that this is a transwoman, not a woman.

Popchyk · 19/11/2018 23:25

"Provision of women only spaces are necessary for a range of reasons, including the impact of the trauma of male violence and sexual exploitation, and because some services do not meet women’s specific needs. In fact, Women in Prison was established because our founders recognised that a criminal justice system dominated by men’s offending meant that women’s needs and experiences were often invisible."

So how do they balance that with supporting a man's right to claim womanhood purely on his say so?

And how do they intend to manage the trauma of male violence and sexual exploitation when they are including the perpetrators of male violence and sexual exploitation in the group women?

WIP don't seem to have an answer to that.

Mamaogden · 20/11/2018 00:35

I’m shaking my head in despair at how many women’s organisations are abandoning us. I know they have reasons, but they should change their names and stated purposes if they do so.

FadingMint · 20/11/2018 00:57

Likewise, shaking my head in despair.

However they word it, it means giving men free range, on men's say-so, into women's prisons.

If Women In Prison are accepting grants and funding on condition that "women in prison" include male sex offenders who say that they are women despite all warning signs to the contrary:, then it is worthless. It is a worthless organisation, facilitating the abuse, by men, of women in prison.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 20/11/2018 01:05

Most of these organisations should declare a conflict of interest between funding requirements and their stated policies of advocating for sex-based rights. Then we can see where the problem is - either with the organisation or with their funders.

FadingMint · 20/11/2018 01:23

Yes, womanformallyknownaswoman, I agree.

If funding meant for women is actually being diverted away from women in order to provide resources for male sexual predators, then this should be made clear.
If Women in Prison are now advocating on behalf of placing male sex offenders in women's prisons, then they should have the honesty to come out and state their position and defend it. And not hide behind dissembling and derailing.

happydappy2 · 20/11/2018 06:55

pygmy great letter, I imagine any phone conversation will be infuriating as WIP won’t comment on individual cases. In light of Karen Wight, Paris Green surely will have to be kept in isolation? Or is that against their human rights?

R0wantrees · 20/11/2018 07:09

Risk assessment must include the individual’s stage of transition; their particular needs; any history of sexual exploitation, violence or abuse; evidence of motivation to exploit, control and/or manipulate others (including coercive control); and risk to the individual or others of consensual sexual activity, pregnancy or sexual assault. This assessment also needs to include transition plans before prison, future intentions after serving their sentence, and any risk to, or impact on the individual, and to others, of moving prison and of not being moved.

Risk assessment should recognise that sex is a relevent factor.
WIP must be aware that the majority of sexual abuse, corecive control and domestic violence by males against females is not successfully prosecuted.
There is no evidence that male pattern offending is mitigated by gender identity.
Single sex space is neccessary for the safety, privacy and dignity of female prisoners.
This is recognised with regards female prisoners whose gender identity is trans and who are therefore not housed in the male prison estate.
Why is WIP failing female prisoners who do not have a gender identity which is trans / non-binary?

R0wantrees · 20/11/2018 07:33

If Women In Prison are accepting grants and funding on condition that "women in prison" include male sex offenders who say that they are women despite all warning signs to the contrary:, then it is worthless. It is a worthless organisation, facilitating the abuse, by men, of women in prison.

It may not solely be due to funding restrictions but perhaps be influenced by some legal and /or ideological perspectives?

Trustees of WIP include:
Paramjit Ahluwalia is a criminal defence barrister (called to the Bar in 2002) and practices at Garden Court Chambers.

Michelle Brewer co-founder of TELI with Tara Hewitt, Jess Bradley etc from Garden Court Chambers.
Garden Court CHambers listed as supporter of TElI
www.teli.org.uk/our-team/

Aisling Wootten "is Director of Membership across two Students Unions, where she oversees campaigns, communications and service delivery within both organisations. Prior to this role Aisling worked as a Parliamentary researcher and studied gender, politics and economics at both SOAS and LSE."

www.womeninprison.org.uk/staff/trustees.php

R0wantrees · 20/11/2018 07:51

Jess Bradley NUS Trans Officer (suspended since July 2018) was cofounder of TELI with I think responsibility for Prisons, also Action For Trans Health which also has a focus on rights for transgender prisoners etc. JB has been a prominent activist in this area.

Rose of Dawn on Action For Trans Health, NUS, Jess Bradley etc

"What Does Co-Opting The Trans Movement Look Like?
Radical far-left activists often co-opt unrelated movements to enforce their ideology on others. Here, I take a look at this phenomenon taking place in the trans community."

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374926-What-influence-does-TELI-have-on-government-public-services-and-charities-policies-Co-founders-include-Jess-Bradley-Tara-Hewitt-and-Michelle-Hudson

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325882-WEP-conference-questions-for-panel-of-trans-rights-advocating-barristers?pg=3

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3320513-Jess-Bradley-first-transgender-student-officer-suspended-after-flashing-photos

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3321764-Jess-Bradley-suspended-Part-II

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325623-Jess-Bradley-a-government-advisor-on-womens-rights-suspended-by-NUS-over-indecent-blog-Part-iii

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323623-Who-is-really-funding-Jess-Bradleys-defence

PygmyHippoBob · 20/11/2018 09:52

Just sent the below email to WIP's CEO, will let you know if I get a response:

__

Dear Kate,

I appreciate the quick response and understand you cannot comment on individual cases.

A charity that describes itself as feminist should prioritise the welfare of female prisoners. That being so, when considering whether male prisoners should ever be allowed into women's prisons, the first question must be: do female prisoners benefit from having a male prisoner amongst them? Is their experience of prison enhanced by the presence of a male prisoner? For me, the answer is obviously 'no'. As WIP's press release points out, most women in prison have suffered at the hands of men. The welfare of one male prisoner should not outweigh the welfare of all the female prisoners who would have no choice but to come into contact with him.

However, WIP's current position is that males should be permitted into women's prisons on a case by case basis. WIP's press release argues for more thorough risk assessments. With respect, campaigning for more thorough risk assessments is not going make women safer. The people currently carrying out the risk assessments no doubt think they are doing a thorough job. If WIP wants to make women safer it should fight for red lines on two of the factors your press release highlights as being relevant to the risk assessment: the ability of a prisoner to impregnate and a prisoner's predilection for violence.

In my view, female prisoners should not be exposed to fellow prisoners who could impregnate them and should not be exposed to violent males. I imagine this view is widely shared by the general public. Since WIP should be at the vanguard of prison reform, rather than trailing behind public opinion, I suggest that it campaigns for a rule that prevents males from being transferred to the female estate if they are intact and/or if they have ever been convicted or cautioned for a violent or sexual offence. Even this will not fully protect women, since, as we know, much male violence against women goes unreported and uninvestigated. However, the two red lines would at least be a start in giving as much weight to the welfare of female prisoners as we do to male prisoners.

Kind Regards,

[name]

Popchyk · 20/11/2018 10:50

On their website they keep referring to "overwhelming proof of a broken system".

And yet they expect this broken system to weed out men who are not sufficiently women in their eyes.

It is absolutely doomed to failure.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 20/11/2018 13:56

women in prison org will have been high up the list for certain TAs to nobble

they have focussed strongly on situations and orgs where women /girls are in sex segregated space >> prison is obviously a big one
plus quite a number of prominent TAs are or are very close to sex offenders so would certainly be keen to pave the way for their own comfort if they are caught + possibly give like minded people opportunity to continue offending behind bars

PygmyHippoBob · 23/11/2018 09:29

Got the below response from WiP CEO. I've said to pass on my email to the MoJ.

*

Dear [name],

Thank you for taking the time to respond to our statement and for drawing the Telegraph article to our attention. Your action has enabled us to write to the editor to formally raise our concern about the misrepresentation of our full statement by the presentation of its content out of context.

Regarding your feedback below we keep our positions on a range of issues and campaigning priorities under constant review. Sadly the harms to women across the prison estate are many, including suicide, self harm, overcrowding and the extraordinarily excessive use of prison to punish low level offending. Our work includes public campaigns and work behind the scenes to ensure practical responses to complex issues which prioritise women’s safety and wellbeing.

With your permission I would like to use your email below as an example of feedback we receive from the public, which helps to inform our ongoing conversations with the Ministry of Justice team working on this area of prison policy – obviously completely anonymised with your name and email address removed.

Best wishes,

Kate

AncientLights · 23/11/2018 09:49

Pygmy That seems a positive: they want to use your comments as an example of feedback for the MOJ. I am thinking if lots of us write similarly we might have some positive effect.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 23/11/2018 10:06

nice job

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