Trans Women Should Be Allowed In Women Only Spaces

[KiBob]

I posted a few days ago that I need help arguing a case on the debating website Kialo. Thanks to your suggestions I've got one claim accepted that I was struggling with.

I'm now trying to get a new claim past admins.

As a supporting claim to:

"Allowing anyone who identifies as female into women-only spaces makes those spaces worse for cis women".

I put this:

"Trans women are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls as found by this study In Sweden in 2011". With a link to this study:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Admin have responded:

"Hm, interesting link. However, the results don't differentiate between trans men and trans women, and also state this: "Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989." - so this might be a bit outdated - 30 years is pretty long.
Further up, in the Abstract, under results it also says "Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls."

Can you point me to the exact place where you get your numbers? Thanks!"

Help!

"who says they identify"
"anyone who identifies"

I'm a little confused what is the difference between these two statements? I thought the working definition of "identifies" is "claims they are". There's no way to verify such a claim either way.

There is no concrete evidence to support the claims that transwoman offend at the same rate as men, post Sweden 1988 so you will struggle to have any valid points that will be taken seriously to call for the full exclusion of all Transwoman.

There are. You are not informed. Who knew btw FPFW and a Californian prison study suggest that they actually offend at a higher rate.

Ereshkigal

I’ve read FPFW’s article and commented above that I couldn’t find anything that proves the claim that transwoman offend at the same rate as men, could you point this out for me? I see details of transwoman in prison (100 males) there is no data as to how many transwoman there are in the UK to back up that this is higher or lower as a percentage than men or woman.
I’ve not read the Californian one, could you provide a link?

Someone who identifies as means they see themselves as/consider themselves to be.

100 Males to females

I’ve read FPFW’s article and commented above that I couldn’t find anything that proves the claim that transwoman offend at the same rate as men, could you point this out for me? I see details of transwoman in prison (100 males) there is no data as to how many transwoman there are in the UK to back up that this is higher or lower as a percentage than men or woman.

I'll post the California prison study. But don't you think in the absence of any reliable data on how many MTFs there are, the relevant figure is the proportion of sex offenders within the MTF trans prison population compared to the men's one and the women's one?

One of my greatest concerns with the identification of trans women as women is that it makes collections of statistics almost impossible. How can we make evidence based decisions, if the decisions we make prevent the collecting of evidence?

I think in the absence of reliable or conclusive data, it is not appropriate to state your own conclusion as fact.
Based on the BBC fact check, I will also say that the proportion noted is based solely on trans inmates serving a longer prison sentence, so more likely to be for serious crimes (such as sexual offenders)
I agree that the number is high, I also note that the data is based on self ID and basically relying solely on the word of a convicted criminal and that in its own right, is ludicrous.
Putting myself in a rapists mind, facing maybe 4 years imprisonment, I’m not surprised they would claim to be transgender to try and get closer to woman.
Another reason why self id is ridiculous and does not belong in prison or anywhere frankly.

I’ll post the California prison study
Thank you.

ucicorrections.seweb.uci.edu/files/2013/06/Transgender-Inmates-in-CAs-Prisons-An-Empirical-Study-of-a-Vulnerable-Population.pdf

20.5% of trans inmates registered sex offenders.

I think in the absence of reliable or conclusive data, it is not appropriate to state your own conclusion as fact.

It’s up to those advocating change to provide conclusive data.

It’s up to those advocating change to provide conclusive data.

THIS.

It is impossible for transwomen to be in women only spaces since their presence means they are no longer women only spaces. By entering the space that space immediately becomes a mixed sex space.

@Birdsfoottrefoil nice! I have totally ripped that off. TY

KiBob You 've missed out one step - showing the evidence that transwomen in women's spaces commit a disproportionate number of offences. There is no good evidence.

How reliable is the data on the transcrimeuk.com website?

I've tabulated it and done some sums. I'm sure it's not perfect but blimey! Even if it's only a bit correct, it's quite damning.

Note the 4:1 ratio of M2F : F2M is considered by many to be incorrect in the direction that actually makes M2F look better in this table than in actuality.

Am I missing something obvious?

KiBob You 've missed out one step - showing the evidence that transwomen in women's spaces commit a disproportionate number of offences. There is no good evidence.

What offences are we talking? Because we've no crimed voyeurism and indecent exposure just with TWAW,

OP I think the transcrime data was painstakingly compiled from media reports.

Stats for trans natal males (transwomen,) taken from here unless otherwise stated:

ucicorrections.seweb.uci.edu/files/2013/06/Transgender-Inmates-in-CAs-Prisons-An-Empirical-Study-of-a-Vulnerable-Population.pdf

ucicorrections.seweb.uci.edu/files/2013/06/A-Demographic-Assessment-of-Transgender-Inmates-in-Mens-Prisons.pdf

Stats for non-trans natal males, and natal females, taken from here, unless otherwise stated:

www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Annual/Census/CENSUSd0812.pdf

Registered sex offender:

Natal females - 1.3%
Trans natal males - 20.5%
Non-trans natal males - 14.2%

So trans natal males are notably more likely to be sex offenders than non-trans natal males, and FAR higher than natal females (which discounts the argument that trans natal males are labelled sex offenders for prostitution, or the natal female rates would be far higher.)

Ethnicity:

Natal Female
Hispanic - 29.4%
White - 36.4%
Black - 29.2%

Trans natal males
Hispanic - 28.3%
White - 28.0%
Black - 34.6%

Non-trans natal males
Hispanic - 39.6%
White - 25.3%
Black - 29.1%

Of the major race/ethnicity groups, it's interesting to see that black trans natal males have notably higher rates of imprisonment than whites and Hispanics, compared to non-trans natal males where Hispanics have the highest incarceration rates by far, and natal females where whites have the highest incarceration rate.

As for sentencing, trans natal males have stats that match non-trans natal males, and differ greatly from natal females'.

Sentencing:

Natal females
Lifer - 8.6%
Life w/o parole - 1.4%
Not a lifer - 91.4

Trans natal males
Lifer - 13.3%
Life w/o parole - 2.4%
Not a lifer - 84.3%

Non-trans natal males
Lifer - 13.7%
Life w/o parole - 2.3%
Not a lifer - 83.6%

The same is true with the type of offence - trans natal male offences are more property focused than crimes against persons', but still align more closely to non-trans natal males, than natal females.

Offence type:

Natal females
Crimes against persons - 32.9%
Property - 34.5%
Drug - 27.2%
Other Crimes - 5.4%

Trans natal males
Crimes against persons - 49.8%
Property - 30.2%
Drug - 16.3%
Other - 3.7%

Non-trans natal males
Crimes against persons - 54.8%
Property - 18.8%
Drug - 17.8%
Other Crimes - 8.5%

Percentage of total demographic incarcerated by population:

Natal females - 0.06%
Trans natal males - 0.89%
Non-trans natal males - 0.86%

Trans natal males have an even higher offence rate that non-trans natal males, which may be partially influenced by higher rates of poverty amongst (particularly Black and Hispanic,) trans natal males.

As of the 2010 census, California had a population of 37,254,518, of which females were 50.3%, which makes the number of women18,739,022. There were 11,408 women housed in California in 2008.

As of the 2010 census, California had a population of 37,254,518, of which males were 49.7%, which makes the number of men 18,515,495. There were 159,753 men housed in prisons in California in 2008.

The estimates of the total transgender population in the US, between 2008 and now, vary between 0.38%, and more recently as much as 1.3%. Recently the blog Culturally Bound Gender investigated the stats, and found that in actuality, the number of trans natal males in the US is 0.2%* of males, which makes the number of trans natal males in California approximately 37,030. According to the source studies, there were at least 332 trans natal males in prisons in California in 2008.

• culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2018/11/21/no-there-havent-always-been-this-many-trans-people-no-theyre-not-just-coming-out-more-because-its-more-acceptable-now-heres-the-evidence/

@DadJoke ?

@EarlyWalker ?

The above stats are a load of crap. Sorry but you can’t base what percentage of trans people are sex offenders by one prison in the middle of California that caters specifically to vulrenable men. It’s an extremely unreliable way to get data and I didn’t respond because it didn’t really dignify a response as the poster who wrote it will know they are twisting statistics.

Also, the poster above clearly does not know how prisons work. To be housed in prison in California does not mean at all that you are from California, most people are not sentenced to their local prison, especially if there’s a reason to go to a specific prison like in the above case study. I don’t even want to respond to these things anymore, it’s too try hard to paint trans people in a bad light and there’s just no need.

By your own stats Hispanic people make up 28% ish of people in prison, shall we make them sit at the back of the bus Incase they attack us? You can’t treat minority groups like some sort of statistic to exclude. It’s not right.

There are 3 reasons why women should not be forced to share intimate space (a space where people are in a full or partially naked) with transwomen

1. Many will fine it humiliating, irrespective of whether the male in question poses a risk or not. There is a strong taboo in nearly all cultures against nudity except in single sex spaces. To expect all women to simply stop feeling ashamed/embarrassed/humiated just because you believe TWAW is rank mysogeny and shoes that you think the feelings of natal women JUST DONT MATTER.

2 . It will make it easier for pests to commit offfences. Sex offenders need opportunity to offend. This will make it soooo much easier as it will be hard or impossible to challenge any male in a woman’s space.

1. It appears that the ‘This never happens’ brigade have been proven to be well and truely wrong . I think it’s time itcwas accepted that males identify as women for different reasons and not all of them are benign as far as women are concerned . First it was ‘there’s no evidence ‘ and then it was ‘that evidence won’t do’.

No woman or girl should have to share a space with any male where both or either are naked without her freely given and informed consent . Anyone who opposes this is an apologist for rape culture.

Stating anyone who identifies as a woman, applies to transwoman and not dangerous predators pretending to be a woman

How are women supposed to know the difference?